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Mamine

Source Elements

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Hiya,

 

I'm a newbie here (just evaluating the new version of TMG 7 (UK edition)) so please forgive any naivety!

 

I'm trying to construct a "Birth Certificate" source which will prompt for the relevant details (e.g. child forenames, mother's name & maiden name, father's name & occupation etc). From what I can gather I should be able to do this by creating Source Elements and adding these to the Source Definition. I've read in another post that the ordering can be a bit strange but taking that aside I can't seem to find sufficent existing Source Elements to be able to set up more than the main person and one other .... so how can I add a Mother and Father, for example ?

 

Can anyone help? Also please advise if there is a simpler way of achieving the end result (ie entering child/mother/father details for a birth cert) in case I've missed something really obvious!

 

Many Thanks

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Mamine,

 

First off, I have never seen a birth certificate source that used the children's parents names. What style template are you using? That information would be better put into the CD of the source like: "certificate states that John Smith, a carpenter was her father and Mary Jones, a housewife were her mother." OR use it in other TAGS, with the birth certificate as the source for those tags, like on John Smith, create an occupation tag of carpenter, and use the birth certificate as the source.

 

Others will probably tell you how to create the source elements, but I don't think you really want all that information in the SOURCE. I am using the US version of TMG and here is my birth certificate template:

 

[NAME OF PERSON], [RECORD TYPE]<, Record Number [FILE NUMBER]><, [CD]>< (dated [FILE DATE])><, [VOLUME]><, [PAGE]><. Original copy can be found in [REPOSITORY INFO]><. [PRESENT OWNER]><. Hereinafter cited as [sHORT TITLE]><: [FILE REFERENCE]><, [sOURCE NUMBER]>.

 

This prints:

 

Jane Smith, Birth Certificate, Record Number 294, dated 23 Jun 1899, Book 4, Page 3. Original copy can be found in the Tennessee State Library and Archives, Nashville, TN. Photocopy in possession of author. Hereinafter cited as Jane Smith, Birth: Smith, 245.

 

The file reference and source number is for my filing system. You can leave that off if you don't need it.

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First off, I have never seen a birth certificate source that used the children's parents names. What style template are you using?

 

Er ... maybe that's my problem! :mellow: I took one of the standard "Birth Certificate" Source Definitions and then tried to add things to it.

 

What's the "CD" of the source ? (to me a CD is a shiny disc thing that fits in the PC ;) )

 

I don't think the tags will do what I want which I guess is to record the source as accurately as possible ... ie to be able to represent the sub-headings and elements that appear in a birth certificate. My understanding is that tags reflect the deduced event rather than the source?

 

I'm not really bothered about changing how the source is cited (am happy to take one of the pre-defined formats for that) but really want a way of representing the source details internally in the same way that they are in reality. Does that make any sense?

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Aha! I've twigged! CD=Citation Detail .... fair enough the sort of thing I'm after could go there but the question remains as to how to set it up so that I am prompted for (and can subsequently display) the appropriate fields (child's forenames, parent's names, occupations etc) when I enter the associated Source Type?

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TMG can easily record all your information and produce the output you desire, you just have to know where it expects you to put certain data. It sounds like you have some basic misunderstandings of the various elements of TMG and what they are designed to do. "Tags" are to record information about events in a manner that will print appropriately in various reports. "Sources" refer to things like documents, books, and records where you obtained the information about the event. A "Citation Detail" (i.e. "CD") records where in the source you found the information and what you found there so this information will print in footnotes. These are the terms you have been using so far, but of course there are others.

 

I highly recommend you review the web page written by the author of the TMG Primer that describes TMG Basic Concepts to get a beginning understanding of the parts of TMG and their intended purpose. It will save you from trying to put data where it is not intended, and trying to put a "square peg in a round hole".

 

Hope this helps,

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Aha! I've twigged! CD=Citation Detail .... fair enough the sort of thing I'm after could go there but the question remains as to how to set it up so that I am prompted for (and can subsequently display) the appropriate fields (child's forenames, parent's names, occupations etc) when I enter the associated Source Type?
The "Source Type" will have fields that identify the source. If you choose to have a separate source for each birth certificate, then you could have Source Elements for each of these fields. In addition, there is a TMG feature called "Reminders" that can aid in reminding you how to enter data in Sources and Citations. Check the TMG Help file on that topic.

 

Hope this gives you ideas,

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While I've not seen a birth certificate source layout that includes the parents names, there is no reason you can't do that if you like. There should be plenty of source elements available to do that. But you do have to be a bit careful in choosing them. You may find my articles on Sources helpful, expecially the two about "Creating Custom Sources" and "Source Elementsand Groups."

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The "Source Type" will have fields that identify the source.

 

Hiya Michael and thank you for your patience :) I do understand the concepts of sources, citations and events etc ... just not yet sure how TMG handles them ... The "Source Type" birth certificate has fields for: title, name of person, event date, registration date, registration district and "Rd Ref" but nothing for say Mother or Father. I can add other things like "Informant" or "Second Person" and I can even create something called "Mother" or "Father" (based on the "Second Person") but I can't add both since there isn't a "Third Person"

 

If you choose to have a separate source for each birth certificate, then you could have Source Elements for each of these fields.

Could you explain how I can set these up please? Many thanks :)

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While I've not seen a birth certificate source layout that includes the parents names

 

Hiya Terry,

 

I'm obviously doing something really strange here yet to me it seems really obvious ... so can I ask the question another way .... Given that I have 100s of birth certs to enter ... and each one has the same subheadings ... what is the best way to save myself the hassle of having to type in things like "Name:", "Mother's maiden name:", "Father's occupation:" etc each time I enter one of the certs. Obviously the *data* under each of these headings will be different but the sub-titles will always be the same and it would be nice to have these as "fields" that I am prompted for when I enter a cert.

 

Thanks again :)

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The "Source Type" will have fields that identify the source.

 

Hiya Michael and thank you for your patience :) I do understand the concepts of sources, citations and events etc ... just not yet sure how TMG handles them ... The "Source Type" birth certificate has fields for: title, name of person, event date, registration date, registration district and "Rd Ref" but nothing for say Mother or Father. I can add other things like "Informant" or "Second Person" and I can even create something called "Mother" or "Father" (based on the "Second Person") but I can't add both since there isn't a "Third Person"

 

If you choose to have a separate source for each birth certificate, then you could have Source Elements for each of these fields.

Could you explain how I can set these up please? Many thanks :)

You may understand the concepts of these terms, but my point is that TMG handles these terms in specific ways, and Terry's tutorials can help you understand how. For example, there are a limited number of TMG Source Elements that can be defined for a TMG Source. I suggest you review this web page from Terry's Tips about Source Elements describing the limitations and how to customize both the elements and have your field names automatically print in the Footnotes, etc.

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I suggest you review this web page from Terry's Tips about Source Elements describing the limitations and how to customize both the elements and have your field names automatically print in the Footnotes, etc.

 

I have done but he doesn't seem to explain what I'm trying to achieve. I think I have to assume that TMG doesn't do what I want :(

 

Thanks for your help

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I have done but he doesn't seem to explain what I'm trying to achieve. I think I have to assume that TMG doesn't do what I want :(

That's probably true but what you are trying to do is not how you would normally record the data.

 

You need to record where the record as a source.

 

You need to record the birth in an event tag.

 

You would normally link the event tag to the source with a citation and record the data you are describing in the Citation Detail field of the citation.

 

This will not provide fields to record that data but you can create a text template to use when you record the details in the Citation Detail field.

 

You could record that template in the Reminder field of the source type used to create all of these like sources. You can open the reminder from the Citation screen and copy the template to the Citation Detail field and then overtype the template to record your data. This would mean that you would not need to reinvent the wheel each time that you add a citation and the subheadings in the field would already be created and you would just need to type in the new data.

 

For example, your template could look something like this...

Name: ; Mother's maiden name: ;Father's occupation: ; etc.

 

After you paste the template into the Citation Detail field, you add the data.

 

This means that your source could be very simple only one source would be required for all of these birth certificates. The different data for the certificates would be recorded in the citation ffor each Birth event.

 

This should give you an idea for the normal practice of how to record such data in TMG.

 

Since this appears to be UK data, you might want to join the UK mail list and inquire as to how other UK TMG users have dealt with this issue.

http://www.whollygenes.com/forums201/index.php?showtopic=87

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I'm obviously doing something really strange here yet to me it seems really obvious ... so can I ask the question another way .... Given that I have 100s of birth certs to enter ... and each one has the same subheadings ... what is the best way to save myself the hassle of having to type in things like "Name:", "Mother's maiden name:", "Father's occupation:" etc each time I enter one of the certs. Obviously the *data* under each of these headings will be different but the sub-titles will always be the same and it would be nice to have these as "fields" that I am prompted for when I enter a cert.

Mamine,

 

I think the point several are trying to make is that one normally enters in the Source Defintion a description of the source, not the entire contents. Generally, the contents are recorded in the various Tags in which one cites that source. However, the question is, just what makes up an adequate "description" of each of the many types of sources we encounter in genealogy? The published source guides offer some suggestions, but many of us choose to record the information differently. So if you think having the parents' names in the footnotes is helpful, you certainly can do that.

 

There actually are enough source elements to do that. As I understand it, you want to enter 4 different names. There are actually five "name" groups - Author, Complier, Editor, Second Person, and Subject. But, it's not clear you actually need to use "name" groups. The significant thing about those groups is that when you enter the name in the form Surname, Given Name they arrange the output according to common usage: Given Name Surname in the full footnote, Surname in the short footnote, and Surname, Given Name in the Bibliography. If you don't want that to happen you can use any group for the names.

 

So how do you make this happen? First, create custom source elements with names that help - say "Name", "Maiden name", "Fathers occupation" etc. Take care in assigning them to groups so they are all in groups not otherwise used in the template, using the "name" groups or not as you prefer. Then, create templates that use these elements with appropriate text to create the desired output. My article on creating custom sources describes how to do that, although I suspect you already understand a lot of that.

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I have been following this discussion with interest. I think I am mid-level in experience using TMG UK version. Still have lots to learn. I am still confused on a couple of points not raised yet. My own birth certificate (Victoria Australia) lists my siblings in addition to parents plus the standard birth information. In this case I listed that information, siblings and their age when I was born, in the citation detail section for the birth tag which according to advice given in this discussion is normal. I note additional information can be entered in the tag memo ie <[M2].> and citation memo. Typically when and what would be recorded in these areas. And why M2 which requires this || prefix to make the information print in reports. Is this because the source memo, if there was information in this section, would be M1?

Thanks,

Buzz

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While I've not seen a birth certificate source layout that includes the parents names

 

Hiya Terry,

 

I'm obviously doing something really strange here yet to me it seems really obvious ... so can I ask the question another way .... Given that I have 100s of birth certs to enter ... and each one has the same subheadings ... what is the best way to save myself the hassle of having to type in things like "Name:", "Mother's maiden name:", "Father's occupation:" etc each time I enter one of the certs. Obviously the *data* under each of these headings will be different but the sub-titles will always be the same and it would be nice to have these as "fields" that I am prompted for when I enter a cert.

 

Thanks again :)

 

 

That's what I am getting at. That is DATA that would be stored in a tag, like a relationship tag, not SOURCE information. You would put the mother's maiden name, in the tag, and then use the birth certificate as the source for the mother's maiden name. I just don't think that kind of data belongs in a a source citation, but rather in individaul tags.

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I have been following this discussion with interest. I think I am mid-level in experience using TMG UK version. Still have lots to learn. I am still confused on a couple of points not raised yet. My own birth certificate (Victoria Australia) lists my siblings in addition to parents plus the standard birth information. In this case I listed that information, siblings and their age when I was born, in the citation detail section for the birth tag which according to advice given in this discussion is normal. I note additional information can be entered in the tag memo ie <[M2].> and citation memo. Typically when and what would be recorded in these areas. And why M2 which requires this || prefix to make the information print in reports. Is this because the source memo, if there was information in this section, would be M1?

Thanks,

Buzz

 

 

Buzz,

 

If it were me, I would record the birth certificate (or record) as my source. Then for each sibling, I would go to their birth tag, and use that source. In the CD field I would put, "lists him as a sibling at his sister's birth." This way I would know that he was mentioned on the birth certificate of another sibling. I would not try to enter that information into the source element data fields at all.

 

In the Memo field of a source, I will put things like, "This marriage book has an index at the back of the book by groom." OR "This book was very hard to read and therefore information could be misread." OR "Only known copy of this book." etc.

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You could record that template in the Reminder field of the source type used to create all of these like sources. You can open the reminder from the Citation screen and copy the template to the Citation Detail field and then overtype the template to record your data. This would mean that you would not need to reinvent the wheel each time that you add a citation and the subheadings in the field would already be created and you would just need to type in the new data.

 

Hiya Jim,

 

Thanks for the detailed info. My problem is that by putting the details of the source in the citation (rather than the source itself - or some other entity closely related to it) the data is duplicated and fragmented thereby losing data integrity. So whilst I can see how this may work in TMG I'm afraid I don't think it's what I was looking for.

 

Thanks again for the input tho' It has been interesting to see why I'm not getting what I want hehe

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That is DATA that would be stored in a tag, like a relationship tag, not SOURCE information. You would put the mother's maiden name, in the tag, and then use the birth certificate as the source for the mother's maiden name. I just don't think that kind of data belongs in a a source citation, but rather in individaul tags.

 

See my previous message ... I think we treat Tags/events/facts whatever slightly differently ... I see these as deductions made *from* the source rather than part *of* the source and what I am looking for is a way of storing the data that is *in* the source - in its native format. It doesn't make much difference if you only have one Citation per Tag but if you get different versions of the same Tag/event then some interpretation is needed e.g. say I have a birth and baptism record for the same person citing slightly different names ... I know you could create two different Names but personally I prefer to have each Name in its own Source and one Name which is my interpretation/deductions from combined analysis of both sources. Same goes for 2 different birth sources quoting different dates for the same person .. I would have one Birth event with two sources with its own details of source.

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My own birth certificate (Victoria Australia) lists my siblings in addition to parents plus the standard birth information. In this case I listed that information, siblings and their age when I was born, in the citation detail section for the birth tag which according to advice given in this discussion is normal. I note additional information can be entered in the tag memo ie <[M2].> and citation memo. Typically when and what would be recorded in these areas.

 

Hiya Buzz,

 

I obviously can't comment on what is right for TMG but what I would *want* to do if I were you is store all the siblings in the "Source" as they appear in the actual source document; then attach the Source (via a citation) to the relevant people/siblings and their names and birthdates etc and also as a citation to their relationship to each other with a note in the relationship Tag (if such a thing exists in TMG) explaining that they all appeared together in your birth cert. That way if anything breaks (e.g. you find a birth cert for your sibling which contradicts the one where he/she is listed with you) you don't have to go through and correct all the previous citations and/or tags, all you have to do is amend the one siblings birth and the rest still hangs together.

 

But hey I'm obviously out-numbered here (and not successfully using TMG!) so follow the gang :D

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See my previous message ... I think we treat Tags/events/facts whatever slightly differently ... I see these as deductions made *from* the source rather than part *of* the source and what I am looking for is a way of storing the data that is *in* the source - in its native format. It doesn't make much difference if you only have one Citation per Tag but if you get different versions of the same Tag/event then some interpretation is needed e.g. say I have a birth and baptism record for the same person citing slightly different names ... I know you could create two different Names but personally I prefer to have each Name in its own Source and one Name which is my interpretation/deductions from combined analysis of both sources. Same goes for 2 different birth sources quoting different dates for the same person .. I would have one Birth event with two sources with its own details of source.

Mamine, I'm with you. The tag holds the conclusions, and the citaiton explains how you got there. But, here we differ is that I put the details from the source in the Citation Detail, not in the Source Definition.

 

If you put the details in the source defintion all the details appear for every tag in which you cite that source. So if you cite the birth certificate in question for the name tags of the child and two parents, for the two parent-child relationship tags, for the child's birth tag (and maybe those of the two parents as well if that info is there) and the father's occupation tag - all that detail appears in the footnotes for each of those tags. By putting the details in the CD or CM, only the details related to that tag will appear in the footnotes.

 

If you want to in effect transcribe the source document into the source defintion for easy reference from within TMG (as opposed to output in reports) I'd suggest putting that in the Source Memo (Comments) field, and not have them print in the footnotes.

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... the question is, just what makes up an adequate "description" of each of the many types of sources we encounter in genealogy? The published source guides offer some suggestions, but many of us choose to record the information differently. So if you think having the parents' names in the footnotes is helpful, you certainly can do that.

 

I can see what you're saying but I'm not trying to get this data to appear in a footnote (in fact I actively do *not* want it to appear in a footnote) ... I'm looking for a centralised place to store it where it keeps data integrity. I think the concensus here is I should use Citations and/or Tags in TMG (as with many other genealogy programs). I guess what I'm looking for is a way of structuring the "Actual Text" field of the GEDCOM SOUR tag.

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Mamine, I'm with you.

Oh good :D It was feeling very lonely out here hehe!

If you put the details in the source defintion all the details appear for every tag in which you cite that source.

When you say "appear" - du mean that the data model puts the source against each tag? Or just that the source always "shows" through to each tag? If the latter then my view is that this is correct (although it depends how you chunk your sources) ... because one element of a source (e.g. a name or a date/place of birth) cannot be taken in isolation ... If one piece of that birth cert is found to be wrong in some way then it may affect all the Tags related to it - they would certainly all need to be re-checked or you could end up with bad citations hanging around which are no longer valid.

If you want to in effect transcribe the source document into the source defintion for easy reference from within TMG (as opposed to output in reports) I'd suggest putting that in the Source Memo (Comments) field, and not have them print in the footnotes.

Yes I do effectively want to transcribe the source here ... so is there a way of getting the sort of standard labels I was talking about into the Source Memo (Comments) field?

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I can see what you're saying but I'm not trying to get this data to appear in a footnote (in fact I actively do *not* want it to appear in a footnote) ... I'm looking for a centralised place to store it where it keeps data integrity. I think the concensus here is I should use Citations and/or Tags in TMG (as with many other genealogy programs). I guess what I'm looking for is a way of structuring the "Actual Text" field of the GEDCOM SOUR tag.

Sorry, I thought you wanted it in the output. If you don't want it in the output you should disregard the suggestion I made previously. Instead, you have two choices as I see it:

 

1. Enter the data in the Comments field of the Source Definition, but do not include the [COMMENTS] source element in the output templates. If you do this, the content is output is exported as a NOTE tag to GEDCOM, but the text will not be included in the footnotes in reports so long as the [COMMENTS] source element is not in any of the output templates.

 

Jim suggested to you yesterday a way to create a standard set of labels - put the labels in the reminder field of the Source Type, then copy them from the reminder and paste them into the Comments field.

 

2. Attach an image, if available, or a text file with the transcription, to the Source as an exhibit. You will be able to view these from within TMG, but if I recall correctly, TMG will not include them in reports (but Second Site will optionally include them in sites you build).

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... the question is, just what makes up an adequate "description" of each of the many types of sources we encounter in genealogy? The published source guides offer some suggestions, but many of us choose to record the information differently. So if you think having the parents' names in the footnotes is helpful, you certainly can do that.

 

I can see what you're saying but I'm not trying to get this data to appear in a footnote (in fact I actively do *not* want it to appear in a footnote) ... I'm looking for a centralised place to store it where it keeps data integrity. I think the concensus here is I should use Citations and/or Tags in TMG (as with many other genealogy programs). I guess what I'm looking for is a way of structuring the "Actual Text" field of the GEDCOM SOUR tag.

 

 

Mamine,

Then I definitely would use tags for this data if I didn't want it in the footnote. Sources are what create footnotes. I can't help you much with the SOUR tag in GEDCOM, but one thing I know is that if you use custom source elements, that data isn't going to GEDCOM into a field that another program is going to recognize, so that's definitely a reason to not try and make it part of a source.

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Hi Everyone,

I'm new here and was very interested in what Mamine had to say about UK birth cert's, I want to do exactly that. Enter all the details from the source and had gone some way towards acheiving that by adding the extra 'fields' I required in the 'Source Definition' input form. However all that aside, when I enter a new 'field' by clicking on the next blank button at the bottom of the list, filling in the details, click OK, it then appears at the top before all the buttons that were there previously. :wacko:

 

Source_Definition_screen.jpg

 

Is there a way to move the new 'field' to another position in the list?

Or do I have to create them in the order of use?

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