Version 8?

[Mr.Kim.Sanders 0]

Multilingual documents go back as least as far as the Rosetta Stone, containing not only various languages, but a variety of scripts also. Perhaps someone who has not been commenting so far on these boards knows what I'm getting at, and how that could be achieved. It may liberate TMG and a whole host of program suites limited by locale. We're now living in an increasingly global village, as Flu virus A (H1N1), now declared a pandemic, and Barack Obama's life and presidency bear out. A New World Order is increasingly spoken of.

[Terry Reigel 0]

Yes, some of your points are true. But what does it have to do with your proposal that languages in TMG reports be tied to the Operating System Language? It seems to me it indicates the opposite - a need for users working in one language in their operating system to be able to produce reports in multiple languages.

 

Also, note that TMG supports custom languages, which may not be real languages at all, but a custom set of Sentences and/or pharases created by the user for special purposes. This is one of TMG's more powerful features. These custom languages cannot be linked to the OS because because they don't exist in the OS.

 

It makes no sense to limit the output of TMG to the language the user has selected for the OS.

[John Cardinal 0]

The ONLY thing I can think of that you have to remember to change when you edit a language in TMG in another language besides ENGLISH that you also have to remember to edit is the ENGLISH version is tag type labels and I think that's only becomes a problem if you use Second Site which reads the ENGLISH labels. Otherwise edit the language all you want, there is no reason to also edit EMGLISH, which I don't have TMG open at the moment, but I don't think you CAN edit the LANGUAGE files to ENGLISH, which is the reason we have ENGISH 2, right?

Second Site has a very comprehensive tag label translation facility. The Second Site user interface is limited to English, and the controls that are used to choose which events are included in the site use the English (US) value. When constructing a site, however, SS honors the tag label translation that TMG provides, but it includes another optional facility to perform additional manipulations. So, for example, a tag label that works fine in TMG but is not appropriate for a web site can be converted to another value.

 

So, SS users should assign meaningful names to the English (US) version of the tag label, and that's the only factor affecting SS usage.

[John Cardinal 0]

Perhaps someone who has not been commenting so far on these boards knows what I'm getting at, and how that could be achieved.

I won't speculate on behalf of people who haven't commented for themselves, but I can surely say that I don't know what you are getting at.

 

It may liberate TMG and a whole host of program suites limited by locale. We're now living in an increasingly global village, as Flu virus A (H1N1), now declared a pandemic, and Barack Obama's life and presidency bear out. A New World Order is increasingly spoken of.

Pandemics have been around a long time and many have had far more impact on the (ahem) "global village" than virus A (H1N1). Bubonic plague comes to mind, for example.

 

"Barack Obama's life and presidency" don't "bear out" anything that is related to this topic.

 

If you stay on-topic, you increase the chances of a rational discussion.

[GenerationGoneBy 0]

The ONLY thing I can think of that you have to remember to change when you edit a language in TMG in another language besides ENGLISH that you also have to remember to edit is the ENGLISH version is tag type labels and I think that's only becomes a problem if you use Second Site which reads the ENGLISH labels. Otherwise edit the language all you want, there is no reason to also edit EMGLISH, which I don't have TMG open at the moment, but I don't think you CAN edit the LANGUAGE files to ENGLISH, which is the reason we have ENGISH 2, right?

Second Site has a very comprehensive tag label translation facility. The Second Site user interface is limited to English, and the controls that are used to choose which events are included in the site use the English (US) value. When constructing a site, however, SS honors the tag label translation that TMG provides, but it includes another optional facility to perform additional manipulations. So, for example, a tag label that works fine in TMG but is not appropriate for a web site can be converted to another value.

 

So, SS users should assign meaningful names to the English (US) version of the tag label, and that's the only factor affecting SS usage.

 

 

John,

As a user of English2, I have to remember to edit English so that I get meaningful labels when I use SS and TMGU, but as you state, it's only when I use it. My end users (the readers) never know, and that works for me. And even if I forget to edit the label, I often know what tag the DEED2 label refers to since I copy specific types of tags to use for specific types of new tags. I just couldn't think of any other reason a user would need to edit ENGLISH if they were using another language, can you?

 

I also understand that there's no way for TMG to automatically change ENGLISH tag labels to what I edit them to in my new language, or they'd constantly be changing for people using more than one language, so if I want my English2 and my English to match, it's up to me to remember to edit the labels. Some times I do. Some times I don't.

[GenerationGoneBy 0]

Also, note that TMG supports custom languages, which may not be real languages at all, but a custom set of Sentences and/or pharases created by the user for special purposes. This is one of TMG's more powerful features. These custom languages cannot be linked to the OS because because they don't exist in the OS.

 

It makes no sense to limit the output of TMG to the language the user has selected for the OS.

 

 

I am probably the biggest user of ENGLISH only languages that are not real languages per say, but just ways of getting different ouput for the same tags and roles.

I have English2 which I use for narratives that I put on the web.

Tabular which is a special columnar type report I created that puts output into columns.

And I have Research which outputs data that I only send to researchers or use in my own research. It's bear bones, research notes.

 

They all use the same tags, the same roles, yet different languages (all in English). I agree with Terry, there'd be no way to tie this to my OS and I am glad TMG doesn't limit us to doing so. I'd hate to have to change my OS to German to send a TMG narrative to my cousin in Germany, or Spanish to send one to my cousin in Mexico.

 

Maybe a better suggestion would be we pick a global language and start teaching the entire world to speak that language.

[Mr.Kim.Sanders 0]

• It would seem to me that there is a potentially wide variety of personal customizations that ought to be available even if perhaps some of them are not available currently. I'm thinking of both the install stage as well as throughout the use of TMG throughout its iterations and upgrades. Some, like me, have used a TMG version since it became available to them. After using it for a time, they may decide that they want to streamline things, at least a little. I certainly do. (Thank you, Virginia Blakelock, for your "elegant, business" screen shot(s) mentioned here. The full-width Details aspect is certainly useful to me. I have incorporated it into my new look. It allows me the maximum input per one-line Tag Entry.)

• There is much more that I'd like to be able to do. For example, various icons appear across the top that I have no desire for at the moment: icons such as Exhibits, DNA, Tasks, Web, and Image. So, I'd like to be able to have the options of uninstalling various ones now, and reinstalling perhaps one or more of them later.

• Keeping to the issue of flexibility, I'd like to be able to change the Ancestor Interest and Descendant Interest options on the Flags tab. I don't find 0,1,2,3 particularly helpful myself, but it obviously means something to those that designed it that way. I'd like to be able to have the option of eliminating the Ancestor/ Descendant Interest features, or perhaps modifying them to something more meaningful.

• On the Tag Entry itself, after having experimented with several approaches, I now would prefer having an option to change the pop-up screen since I use just the Memo note for most of my current Tags, but generally do not now use the Place style, nor the Citation field, nor the various icons in the upper-right-hand area such as Primary name and look-up tools, which are below the Tag Entry row.

• Rather than using an entry system that adds verbs and grammatical structure to my data, I have developed a different approach. One sample of a current, typical Tag in my Tree is the following Christening Memo:- Thomas PIDSLEY [32939]: chr. 04 Feb 1787 @ Topsham DEV ENG: parents= Peter PIDSLEY [32933], Sarah [32934] <IGI Batch P001841.

• In the example above, each person's name is followed by its matching Tree#; Chapman-type County/ Country Codes are used; and the Source is indicated at the end.

• Since the topic is "Version 8?", I believe that it is open to each contributor's interpretation and reaction to the inputs of others. My submissions here are intended to give further insights into the way I personally think of TMG now and going forward, perhaps more nuanced than before.

[Helmut Leininger 0]

Hi,

 

speaking about languages, I think it is quite usable as it is now. I am from Austria and use German, and it works. I could define different styles for places as in Germany and Austria the administrative structures are different: English county = Germany Kreis = Austria Bezirkhauptmannschaft. 200 years ago, it differed from that, too (it was "Herrschaft" then). I have ancestors in Austria, Germany, Bohemia (Czech), Latvia (Latvian, Russian) and I could assign a different place style to each event if I wanted to.

 

At present, the biggest problem for me is that TMG does not support Unicode (or UTF-8/16) due to the restricted possibilities of the underlying database. The Czech language has a lot of national characters that are beyond the 8-bit = 256 character set. And these characters have a meaning in pronounciation etc., so you cannot leave them off. Windows supports Unicode, every modern word processor supports it, some other genealogy programs do - When will the support be introduced to TMG?

[Virginia Blakelock 0]

(Thank you, Virginia Blakelock, for your "elegant, business" screen shot(s) mentioned here. The full-width Details aspect is certainly useful to me. I have incorporated it into my new look. It allows me the maximum input per one-line Tag Entry.)

Thank you, I'm glad you like it.

 

• There is much more that I'd like to be able to do. For example, various icons appear across the top that I have no desire for at the moment: icons such as Exhibits, DNA, Tasks, Web, and Image. So, I'd like to be able to have the options of uninstalling various ones now, and reinstalling perhaps one or more of them later.

You can turn off the existing toolbars and add whatever features/buttons you want to a Custom Toolbar. Note in my screenshot here to which you referred, that I have no toolbars at the top, only a 'floating' custom toolbar in the lower right corner (handy for a mouse click). I do not like the distraction of 'busy' icons, so use text (i.e. MSL for Master Source List) and colored boxes for some items (i.e. series of box icons for census year tags, 1850, 1860, etc.) with tooltips to identify them.

 

 

• Keeping to the issue of flexibility, I'd like to be able to change the Ancestor Interest and Descendant Interest options on the Flags tab. I don't find 0,1,2,3 particularly helpful myself, but it obviously means something to those that designed it that way. I'd like to be able to have the option of eliminating the Ancestor/ Descendant Interest features, or perhaps modifying them to something more meaningful.

You could easily make new Flags with slightly different names and your own options.

 

• On the Tag Entry itself, after having experimented with several approaches, I now would prefer having an option to change the pop-up screen since I use just the Memo note for most of my current Tags, but generally do not now use the Place style, nor the Citation field, nor the various icons in the upper-right-hand area such as Primary name and look-up tools, which are below the Tag Entry row.

You might want to try the 'Beginner' mode of Data Entry (in Preferences). I do not use narrative reports and prefer the less-cluttered look of that basic mode.

 

Virginia

[Terry Reigel 0]

You could easily make new Flags with slightly different names and your own options.

And, you can disable the ones you don't want to see so they don't appear in the Flags window. You can also change the order they appear in so the ones you care about are at the top of the screen.

[vabopi 0]

I am a new user of TMG, and very happy with it. However I would like to suggest something that I used on my former program, and I miss a lot.

The Details Window (tree view) only allows navigation in one direction. Going in the descendents direction would be very useful but is not possible.

[Jim Byram 0]

I am a new user of TMG, and very happy with it. However I would like to suggest something that I used on my former program, and I miss a lot.

The Details Window (tree view) only allows navigation in one direction. Going in the descendents direction would be very useful but is not possible.

I would suggest making a custom layout that includes the Project Explorer which lets you do what you want to do.

[Terry Reigel 0]

You can also keep the Children Window open and double-click on them to naviagate downward, but of course only one generation at a time.

[Mr.Kim.Sanders 0]

At present, the biggest problem for me is that TMG does not support Unicode (or UTF-8/16) due to the restricted possibilities of the underlying database. The Czech language has a lot of national characters that are beyond the 8-bit = 256 character set. And these characters have a meaning in pronunciation etc., so you cannot leave them off. Windows supports Unicode, every modern word processor supports it, some other genealogy programs do - When will the support be introduced to TMG?

 

I also have Czech names in my Tree. The workaround that I've come up with is to use Alt-0165 (¥) to represent words such as hác¥ek (my representation of the Czech word for the v-shaped Czech diacritic), and Alt-0176(°) to represent the krouz¥ek (the o-shaped Czech diacritic) in du°m (a Czech word for house). As my examples bear out, I'm using Western Windows Alt-codes throughout, with the ¥ or ° following the base character to represent the diacritic. For a more fullsome description regarding a whole range of languages, see http://www.whollygenes.com/forums201/index...?showtopic=9809 —ASCII-workarounds for accented letters.

 

I hope you find this useful while we are waiting on Unicode. Of course, converting all of this to Unicode, when it does come, will need to be addressed. Hopefully, topic 9809 will be referenced so that the upgrade will be seamless when it arrives for all users who have used the workarounds decribed there. /Kim.

[Mr.Kim.Sanders 0]

1• Thank you, Virginia, for sharing with me in this discussion so far. Hopefully this conversation will help others like myself that seem to require "live" assistance in knowing which changes the system currently allows, and which ones may yet be future.

 

2• There is much more that I'd like to be able to do. For example, various icons appear across the top that I have no desire for at the moment: icons such as Exhibits, DNA, Tasks, Web, and Image. So, I'd like to be able to have the options of uninstalling various ones now, and reinstalling perhaps one or more of them later. /Kim.

2• You can turn off the existing toolbars and add whatever features/buttons you want to a Custom Toolbar. Virginia

2• Yes, I see that your suggestion may be a viable option for someone else. Personally, I don't want to add to the dedicated memory needed by Adding a Custom toolbar. Rather, I want to decrease the memory load by eliminating icons (that I don't want) from the Standard toolbar itself. That option doesn't seem to be available yet.

 

3• Keeping to the issue of flexibility, I'd like to be able to change the Ancestor Interest and Descendant Interest options on the Flags tab. I don't find 0,1,2,3 particularly helpful myself, but it obviously means something to those that designed it that way. I'd like to be able to have the option of eliminating the Ancestor/ Descendant Interest features, or perhaps modifying them to something more meaningful. /Kim.

3• You could easily make new Flags with slightly different names and your own options. Virginia

3• To me, this looks like another version of the same issue. Personally, I'm looking to have the option of changing the elements of the actual default Flags tab.

 

4• On the Tag Entry itself, after having experimented with several approaches, I now would prefer having an option to change the pop-up screen since I use just the Memo note for most of my current Tags, but generally do not now use the Place style, nor the Citation field, nor the various icons in the upper-right-hand area such as Primary name and look-up tools, which are below the Tag Entry row. /Kim.

4• You might want to try the 'Beginner' mode of Data Entry (in Preferences). I do not use narrative reports and prefer the less-cluttered look of that basic mode. Virginia

4• This appears to be yet a third version of the one issue. I would appreciate the option of modifying of the default Advanced Tag. At the same time, I am looking for the option of a further-simplified Custom Tag screen which I could convert my Tag screens to (one at a time). /Kim.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Mr.Kim.Sanders

[Virginia Blakelock 0]

I'd like to be able to design my own custom windows too, not just in TMG but in other programs. For now, a few minutes of your time - using the suggestions above, will get you close to what you want without expending WG development time perhaps better spent on more substantive enhancements. Let us know if you have any questions about creating a custom toolbar or customizing the Flags window. And give the Beginner/Basic data entry mode with its less cluttered tag window a try. You may find you prefer it.

 

Virginia

[Mr.Kim.Sanders 0]

I'm into minimal, but versatile. So, I'll make due with what I've got. It's a shame, perhaps. But, with about 33,000 people in my Tree and probably an average of 10 Tags per person, I feel it's not worth the risk(s). Thanks, Virginia, for helping me walk through the relevant issues. I appreciate your cool head on this. Much appreciated. /Kim.

[Terry Reigel 0]

1• Thank you, Virginia, for sharing with me in this discussion so far. Hopefully this conversation will help others like myself that seem to require "live" assistance in knowing which changes the system currently allows, and which ones may yet be future.

You might try my book (reference below) - it discusses all these and more.

 

2• Yes, I see that your suggestion may be a viable option for someone else. Personally, I don't want to add to the dedicated memory needed by Adding a Custom toolbar. Rather, I want to decrease the memory load by eliminating icons (that I don't want) from the Standard toolbar itself. That option doesn't seem to be available yet.

What memory load are you talking about? How does turning off toolbars you don't use and replacing them with a simpler toolbar with fewer icons fail to do just that? Seems to me it does exactly what you are asking for.

 

Personally, I'm looking to have the option of changing the elements of the actual default Flags tab.

Why? How does creating your own custom flags with the values you want, and disabling the standard ones you don't want to use, not achive what you asked for?

I'm into minimal, but versatile.

Yes, that's exactly what Virginia is explaining how to achieve.

 

But, with about 33,000 people in my Tree and probably an average of 10 Tags per person, I feel it's not worth the risk(s).

What risks? How does using the existing features to customize your toolbars and Flags expose your data to any risk?

[Mr.Kim.Sanders 0]

Hello, Terry.

1• I'm using TMG 6.12 for my big project still. Would your book help me?

 

2• I'm a hands-on visual person myself. I know the standard/defaults and I can easily see which features I don't use. With something new, I might forget something, and thus lose something. That something could be some actual data, or it could be me not knowing how to get to it (which to me amounts to the same thing). Also, if a toolbar is "out of sight" and "turned off", it may be out of mind, but the fact that it's being stored somewhere means to me that bytes are dedicated to it.

/Kim.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Mr.Kim.Sanders

[Terry Reigel 0]

1• I'm using TMG 6.12 for my big project still. Would your book help me?

Sure - most if it applies, but it does describe some of the features that are new in ver. 7 which you won't have (none of what we've talked about here is new in ver. 7). But why are you using out-dated software for your valuable data? You should upgrade to the current version - it has some bug fixes, several very nice new features, and as I recall it's a bit faster.

 

I'm a hands-on visual person myself. I know the standard/defaults and I can easily see which features I don't use. With something new, I might forget something, and thus lose something. That something could be some actual data, or it could be me not knowing how to get to it (which to me amounts to the same thing).

I don't understand how you think you might loose some data from using a custom toolbar, nor from creating custom flags. Just what do you think is at risk?

 

Also, if a toolbar is "out of sight" and "turned off", it may be out of mind, but the fact that it's being stored somewhere means to me that bytes are dedicated to it.

My custom toolbar, which is quite extensive, takes 3kb on disk as a text file. The standard toolbars, which are internal to the program, I'd think are more efficiently stored. You no doubt have lots more wasted bytes on your system than that.

[Mr.Kim.Sanders 0]

1• I'm using TMG 6.12 for my big project still. Would your book help me?

Sure - most if it applies, but it does describe some of the features that are new in ver. 7 which you won't have (none of what we've talked about here is new in ver. 7). But why are you using out-dated software for your valuable data? You should upgrade to the current version - it has some bug fixes, several very nice new features, and as I recall it's a bit faster.

• As I said, in general, I am trying to eliminate features, not add them. The 2 changes I'm waiting for: expand to Unicode, and allow the actual default features to be pruned/expanded.

 

I'm a hands-on visual person myself. I know the standard/defaults and I can easily see which features I don't use. With something new, I might forget something, and thus lose something. That something could be some actual data, or it could be me not knowing how to get to it (which to me amounts to the same thing).

I don't understand how you think you might loose some data from using a custom toolbar, nor from creating custom flags. Just what do you think is at risk?

• I've just explained it as well as I can.

 

Also, if a toolbar is "out of sight" and "turned off", it may be out of mind, but the fact that it's being stored somewhere means to me that bytes are dedicated to it.

My custom toolbar, which is quite extensive, takes 3kb on disk as a text file. The standard toolbars, which are internal to the program, I'd think are more efficiently stored. You no doubt have lots more wasted bytes on your system than that.

• To each, his own.

[John Cardinal 0]

Personally, I don't want to add to the dedicated memory needed by Adding a Custom toolbar. Rather, I want to decrease the memory load by eliminating icons (that I don't want) from the Standard toolbar itself. That option doesn't seem to be available yet.

Toolbar icons consume tiny amounts of RAM, and adding a feature to eliminate icons might actually increase the RAM requirements of the program, not decrease it: a fully-featured component that supports optional icons in every toolbar could use more RAM than a simple component where the toolbar definitions are static. As others have said, you have the option to turn off the standard toolbar, which might save a few bytes of RAM, but you said you don't want to do that.

 

The memory load portion of this discussion is a diversion from a more important point. In the current computing environment where RAM is plentiful, software developers don't worry about incidental RAM use, and they shouldn't. It's critical to optimize in areas that matter, such as database access. (Figuring out how to save a byte here or there is a very expensive way to waste time.) On the other hand, it might be useful to make all toolbar icons optional: the feature is not about saving RAM, it's about making it more convenient for users to customize the program to suit their preferences.

[Mr.Kim.Sanders 0]

Thanks for weighing in, John. Yeah, making all the toolbar icons optional, even on all versions of the Tag screens, would be a great help to me. For instance, I'd like to be able to remove all the Web and Report features completely, as well as the Citation and Log features. The 10 data fields on the Tag screens are also not being used on most of my latest entries; neither are the citation and log features. I, personally, prefer to use the Memo field in place of both the data fields and the Citation fields.

 

In other words, having several toolbars and Tag screens (each showing only the icons/ fields I actually use) would be excellent progress, from my point of view. /Kim.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Mr.Kim.Sanders

[half pint 0]

Hi

 

I love the layout facilities in TMG 7. Mine changes on a daily basis both in colour and content, depending on my mood. One of the first thing my sister asks when she rings me is "what colour is TMG today", as she can tell my mood instantly by the colours. It was one of the main reasons why I moved to v6 from Legacy and have no intention of moving anywhere else.

 

The only things I would like to improve on are the research log which is infinitely better in Legacy, and has been discussed a lot on here and the rootsweb list.

 

The ability to use Gensmarts within TMG a lot more as there are a lot of things I could add to the TMG research log but are only accessible when using Gensmarts stand alone ie creating tasks for UK parish records.

 

Another one would be that the accents, flags, and project explorer be more interlinkable ie I use accents and flags heavily, currently 30+ flags are used on a daily basis. To be able to have everyone with my first accent coloured, at the top of my project explorer would be a lot easier and quicker than having to scroll up and down to find them.

 

Regards

 

Half Pint

[GenerationGoneBy 0]

Half Pint,

 

I agree with you. I'd love to see a few more things added to the research log. The ability to have a hierarchy of tasks, the ability to create a task and then bulk add it to people without having to link them all to the same tag. The ability to quickly link an event to a task. Currently it takes several seconds for the list of events to load and then nearly a minute for me to find the right one in the list. If events had ID numbers, I could easily find an event in the list and link it to a task.

 

The ability to accent tags. Or just to say display this tag type with a blue background with white letters. Currently in the master tag type list we can stay show this tag with the role showing or not, if a feature was added to also so this tag with the background as a color with a drop down box to select the color and the text another with a drop down box to select the color, we could accent all tags of that tag, just by setting the colors in the Master Tag Type list.