Virginia Blakelock 0 Report post Posted March 14, 2011 ... and we have no indication of any kind what it will be. There is a preview of v8 here. Virginia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnR 0 Report post Posted March 18, 2011 There are times when I feel that being a customer of Wholly Genes is like being a citizen of a democratic country. You vote them into power because they are the best thing since sliced bread, and they offer you a nice tax break. You haven't a clue what they are doing for the next four years and just as you finally decide to jump ship and go for the opposition party they come up with another nice package. Suits me - since they haven't got us into a couple of wars in the meantime. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elevator 0 Report post Posted March 18, 2011 (edited) I think its been pointed out before, but response and updates from WhollyGenes has slowed to almost non-existent. This is unfortunate considering how many people are apparently concerned about the future of this fantastic program. The previously vibrant community has slowed to a murmur. For example, take the newsletters and chat transcripts. In 2004 there were 14 newsletters, in 2005: 18, 2006: 19, 2007: 20, 2008: 18, 2009: 11, 2010: 5 and none so far in 2011. Same for chat transcripts; steady decline. 2007: 8, 2008: 9, 2009: 6, 2010: 2 and none in 2011. This doesn't mean, of course, that the developers aren't busy cranking out another great release backstage, but it does look to me like the community surrounding the program is shrinking and that user-confidence is on a steady decline. Edited March 18, 2011 by elevator Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Byram 0 Report post Posted March 18, 2011 Actually, the community on the mail list where most TMG user communication takes place is as robust and active as it has ever been. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elevator 0 Report post Posted March 18, 2011 Isn't this the official forum? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Reigel 0 Report post Posted March 18, 2011 Isn't this the official forum? Yes, but the TMG mail list on Rootweb, a user-sponsored list, has been a very active community for many years, and most of those active there have never switched to this forum. There are many more very experienced users there, and a lot more discussion of the pros an cons of various methods of using TMG, and other topics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elevator 0 Report post Posted March 18, 2011 Obviously there must be a trend here though. Unless WhollyGenes is posting official notices, chat transcripts and newsletters to the TMG mailing list instead of here; it is clear that company feedback to its users have decreased. At the same time I have noticed a greater level of concern amongst TMG users regarding the future of the program (such as the perceived company inactivity, the lack of a regular regular release schedule, and development platform). Don't get me wrong though; even now, without any updates in over two years, TMG is in my mind, without a doubt, the best genealogy program out there, so I really hope that the new version 8 will yet again reassure its users that TMG is the best program out there and intends to maintain that position for the future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Reigel 0 Report post Posted March 18, 2011 I wasn't disagreeing with your original post so far as it relates to communications from WG, but only responding that this forum isn't the center of user exchange. But in fact, I'd suggest that user traffic on this forum has picked up over the several years it has been in existence as new users who have never been accustomed to the Rootsweb email list tend gravitate here instead of that list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elevator 0 Report post Posted March 18, 2011 It is indeed true that the community has been quite vibrant here over the last few years, especially since the release of version 6 and 7. But it certainly seems to have decreased the further we get away from the last update. And the general disgruntlement also seems to increase as news of version 8 remain maddeningly absent. In that case we can only hope that the new release will calm some of the concerns users have expressed here. Especially those concerns related to the future of the program. The worst thing that can happen to a software solution is if its users start to doubt its future viability. And an absent or inactive developer often tends to support those doubts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Courtemill 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2011 (edited) ... and we have no indication of any kind what it will be. There is a preview of v8 here. Virginia That preview really isn't much, is it? It's just a bunch of old FoxPro screen caps that never got updated since posting months and months ago. One would have thought there would even be YouTube videos by now showing the product. Bob V. and group may be OK developers but they suck at self-promotion. It shows in the dwindling numbers of users, too. The switch away from FoxPro will test their programming mettle. I look forward to that. The co. needs a marketing manager in the meantime. Edited March 19, 2011 by Courtemill Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Courtemill 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2011 Actually, the community on the mail list where most TMG user communication takes place is as robust and active as it has ever been. Email lists are things of the past. Email pretty much is too. This board and the whole look of the product and its image need a drastic revamp. From the tired old Mistral font logo to the horrid quill icon, the program smacks of age. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Courtemill 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2011 (edited) It is indeed true that the community has been quite vibrant here over the last few years, especially since the release of version 6 and 7. But it certainly seems to have decreased the further we get away from the last update. And the general disgruntlement also seems to increase as news of version 8 remain maddeningly absent. In that case we can only hope that the new release will calm some of the concerns users have expressed here. Especially those concerns related to the future of the program. The worst thing that can happen to a software solution is if its users start to doubt its future viability. And an absent or inactive developer often tends to support those doubts. The lack of communication is infuriating and comes across as sullen towards users. "There will be no wine before it's time" doesn't fly in 2011. There should have been regular updates all along, even if no specific release dates were mentioned. A few static screen captures that never got updated really is a disservice. The only thing TMG has going in its favor is equally inept competition. Legacy and RootsMagic are equally problem-riddled. FTM is like a bloated corpse. Edited March 19, 2011 by Courtemill Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Procat 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2011 It shows in the dwindling numbers of users, too. An interesting comment. Would you care to share the actual statistics and sources to support this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dennis Bright 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2011 Bob Velke, President Wholly Genes Software Dear Bob, TMG v7.04 is running just fine. Looking forward to the release of TMG v8.0 whenever you think it's ready. Regards, Dennis L. Bright Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Jacobs 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2011 (edited) Bob Velke, PresidentWholly Genes Software Dear Bob, TMG v7.04 is running just fine. Looking forward to the release of TMG v8.0 whenever you think it's ready. Regards, Dennis L. Bright TMG 7.04 is not running just fine if you are tied to a 64-bit operating system and need the word-processing functions. I must confess to a little bitterness about this. TMG 7 was advertised as "Vista-compatible" when it came out and I bought it. That was a half-truth. It was -- and is -- not compatible with Vista x64 or Win 7 x64. I'm also troubled by Wholly Genes' announcement in November or December that version 8 would not be out by Christmas. That announcement was coupled with an offer to buy discounted gift certificates which could be held and used for v.8 when it became available. That was true -- but a little disingenuous because it suggested release much sooner than, say, March 19. Robert Jacobs Ellensburg, Washington Edited March 31, 2011 by Robert Jacobs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TPG 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2011 I no longer can remember when V8 was first announced. My (faulty) memory says that it was over two years ago, but I might be wrong in this. In all of this, I am reminded of the endlessly delayed bloated software development programs of the federal government that were always several months off, but never seemed to able to be released in the form in which they were promised. There is absolutely no reason why even a small number of professional programmers should take that long to produce what was contemplated in V8. Adding to that is the fact that the testing of the product has apparently been substantially left to "volunters". This all leads to the conclusion that the development process in WG is both significantly understaffed and in a very confused state. TMG users have to consider the bitter truth that WG may no longer have the capability to maintain and/or revise TMG. V8, if it ever is released, will likely be the last major version. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pierce.Reid 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2011 I no longer can remember when V8 was first announced. My (faulty) memory says that it was over two years ago, but I might be wrong in this. In all of this, I am reminded of the endlessly delayed bloated software development programs of the federal government that were always several months off, but never seemed to able to be released in the form in which they were promised. There is absolutely no reason why even a small number of professional programmers should take that long to produce what was contemplated in V8. Adding to that is the fact that the testing of the product has apparently been substantially left to "volunters". This all leads to the conclusion that the development process in WG is both significantly understaffed and in a very confused state. TMG users have to consider the bitter truth that WG may no longer have the capability to maintain and/or revise TMG. V8, if it ever is released, will likely be the last major version. TMG is probably one of the most powerful genealogy programs around. The downside is that is is also a complex program, with many options that users can work with. That makes it a challenge for a small company like WG to support and upgrade. The use of FoxPro and other third party programs probably helped get the early versions out the door more quickly by reducing the amount of programming that had to be done. But FoxPro limitations are imposed on TMG (e.g. Unicode), and it is not being upgraded. WG recently had problems with the routines that produce report output aimed at Word. There are probably other programs embedded in TMG that could now be causing programming challenges. In some areas there seems to be unnecessary complexity. One simple example is the requirement that only one event tag of a particular type can be primary. It seems to me that only key events need that - those that require dates/places on standard genealogical reports (e.g. ancestor/descendant charts). That could be limited to birth and death tags (you can only be born or die once - not counting religious rebirth) and maybe marriage of a couple and burial. Superimposing roles (sort of from UFT) on top of TMG's old Principals/Witnesses structure is an additional complexity that may not be solvable. The complex source, citation, repository structure maybe too difficult for me to learn to use "correctly", and I question their real value. Place and people names can have complex structures, even when they are limited to the British naming pattern. I suspect that these complexities are built into too many customers databases that they cannot be simplified. Ultimate Family Tree seems to have a simpler and, in my mind, a more elegant data structure which I think made it easier to program and to use effectively. Of course, when it was taken over by one of its competitors, the new owners decided it wasn't worth maintaining. There are a number of extra features in TMG that I really like, but of course they add to the complexity of the product and and may be difficult to maintain. I think the best we can hope for is that WG keeps slogging away and keeps the program working on the latest operating systems, at least until we can no longer do genealogy. Pierce Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Virginia Blakelock 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2011 There is absolutely no reason why even a small number of professional programmers should take that long to produce what was contemplated in V8. Adding to that is the fact that the testing of the product has apparently been substantially left to "volunters". This all leads to the conclusion that the development process in WG is both significantly understaffed and in a very confused state. We're not talking big business here. I think you will find that the majority of the popular genealogy software 'companies' (with the exception of FTM) consist of one or two owner-developer-programmers, often working out of their homes with a handful of staff, maybe holding a second job, heavily dependent on volunteers for testing and support. Consider the number of genealogy programs and the user base shared among them; look at the revenue stream - with a couple of years between major releases. For example, TMG does not charge for interim updates. Knowing all this, you find a genealogy program you like - with an owner/developer who cares as much about the safety of your data as you do, and stay with it. I'm anxious for v8 too and agree it is overdue - but I trust it is coming and will be worth the wait. Virginia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TPG 0 Report post Posted March 26, 2011 We're not talking big business here. I think you will find that the majority of the popular genealogy software 'companies' (with the exception of FTM) consist of one or two owner-developer-programmers, often working out of their homes with a handful of staff, maybe holding a second job, heavily dependent on volunteers for testing and support. . . . WG may have reached this stage, but I doubt that it started there. WG had "offices" in Howard County Maryland (very close to where I live) and professed to have a set of professional programmers. The number of both major and minor releases formerly issued supports the contention that it was a serious contender in the field - as does the variety of features and support software (i.e. GenBridge). Regardless, the current state of WG is only relevant to the expectation of future support for TMG and not to our attachment to the product. The fact is that WG shows signs of serious problems. I hope that they can get V8 out the door and that it is not too buggy, but without some overhaul I continue to have some doubts about any future upgrades. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Virginia Blakelock 0 Report post Posted March 26, 2011 For more information on WG and TMG, see wikipedia here and the article from ancestry.com here. TMG is a 'serious contender' in the field - and judging from the preview of v8 will continue to be a leader. Virginia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoricuaSeeker 0 Report post Posted March 27, 2011 For more information on WG and TMG, see wikipedia here and the article from ancestry.com here. TMG is a 'serious contender' in the field - and judging from the preview of v8 will continue to be a leader. Virginia Do you realize that you are using a write up from Ancestry that is from the year 2002? The write up is very old and has nothing to do with the state of affairs now in the year 2011, I do not see how this proves that TMG is a top contender today in 2011. TMG is currently very powerful but it is heading for a cliff, a dead end. FoxPro is as good as dead, in the year 2015 all support from Microsoft will stop. They no longer will make sure that Foxpro works. As it is obviously FoxPro is not working with 64bit platforms so already it is on its last breath. I have stated before the writing was on the wall when Microsoft bought FoxPro in the 90's to incorporate its features into Microsoft Access. Microsoft Access went through a bunch of great changes and killed Borland's Paradox and FoxPro. Yes Microsoft did some upgrades to FoxPro by bringing it into the Visual realm of their other products but it no longer was profitable enough and from a business sense was dead. The moment that Microsoft anounced that there would be no more upgrades to Visual Foxpro in 2007 anyone that had any type of application written in FoxPro that they cared about started jumping to another programming platform. Many started trying to push Microsoft into releasing FoxPro as Opensource because they were so emotionally attached to the language, those programmers held on and held on and held on. Many of them were so scared of the newer programming languages like Visual Basic .Net or Java because these languages are so so different, these languages are very modern with their full object oriented functionality and their syntax does not resemble FoxPro in much. The standard for development environments since 2007 has changed a lot also, actually we should say that the environments have changed a lot since 2004 which is when Visual FoxPro 9 was released. Just look up what has changed in the computing world since 2004 and you will clearly see that Foxpro is dead or on its last breath. If it has taken 2 years for a rewrite of the reporting function to make it compatible with 2010 technology, how long do you think it will take for a complete rewrite in a programming language that is nothing like the 2004 version of Foxpro? It has been stated that WG is a small company, does not make big bucks and is just a couple of guys with a hobby and a love for genealogy that wrote TMG. So if TMG is not a money maker then what is the drive to jump through hoops slaving over obsolete code? What is the payoff to rewrite all these years of code in a whole other programming platform? While other companies that are also very small, I am not talking about FTM, are able to add tons of bells and whistles WG has not and has slid way down from top contender http://www.gensoftreviews.com/ . Instead they depend on third party developers to write the addons that are built in to most of the competition. I believe that the state that TMG is in is directly related to FoxPro. If you want to know what the future of TMG is then just look at the future of FoxPro and the lack of communication from WG as to the rewrite of TMG in a new programming language. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Reigel 0 Report post Posted March 27, 2011 As it is obviously FoxPro is not working with 64bit platforms so already it is on its last breath. How is that obvious? TMG 7 itself works perfectly on my 64-bit system, and has for well over a year. The only thing that doesn't work is the third-party code that produces reports to word processor files, and that has nothing to do with FoxPro. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Virginia Blakelock 0 Report post Posted March 27, 2011 It has been stated that WG is a small company, does not make big bucks and is just a couple of guys with a hobby and a love for genealogy that wrote TMG. So if TMG is not a money maker then what is the drive to jump through hoops slaving over obsolete code? What is the payoff to rewrite all these years of code in a whole other programming platform? While other companies that are also very small, I am not talking about FTM, are able to add tons of bells and whistles WG has not and has slid way down from top contender http://www.gensoftreviews.com/ You're reading something into 'small company' that I did not say. My point was that genealogy companies with the exception of FTM are not Microsoft. They are simply small companies that don't need a storefront or large staffed offices - not in these days of telecommuting. This has nothing to do with or implies anything about income or user base. As far as using volunteers (as another writer commented), it is normal practice - as most of us know - for software companies, including Microsoft, to use volunteer beta testers in the final stages of a new release. Volunteers staff the majority of the online forums and mailing lists. It makes no sense to link volunteerism to the viability of a company. Virginia Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Dietz 0 Report post Posted March 27, 2011 As it is obviously FoxPro is not working with 64bit platforms so already it is on its last breath. How is that obvious? TMG 7 itself works perfectly on my 64-bit system, and has for well over a year. The only thing that doesn't work is the third-party code that produces reports to word processor files, and that has nothing to do with FoxPro. I will play a bit of Devil's advocate here to Terry's remarks. Please note that I am not rebuking TMG here just asking a rhetorical question. If the problem is with the 64 bit THIRD-PARTY code and since that seems to be the big hold-up for version 8, why not release 8 with the widespread knowledge that the problem is outside TMG. And hopefully it will be fixed in the future. That way many of the people on this thread will be happier and as far as the problem, we will be no worse off than we are now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Byram 0 Report post Posted March 27, 2011 If the problem is with the 64 bit THIRD-PARTY code and since that seems to be the big hold-up for version 8, why not release 8 with the widespread knowledge that the problem is outside TMG. You are talking about a 16-bit library. That library is not used in TMG8 so it is a non-issue in the development of TMG8. The entire report manager/report output code has been written from scratch for TMG8. Once the loose ends are cleaned up, I would suspect that TMG8 will be released. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites