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A Way to Globally set a tag to "not primary"?

Christening Endowment Baptism

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#1 Kim & Kelly Derrick

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 02:48 PM

Here's my problem: The LDS Ordinances of Endowment and Baptism tend to override the Christening tab, when there isn't a Birth tag. Then the person appears to be "born" in 1947, when they died in 1626. Here's what I mean:
 
Person A
Christening     12 Dec 1588
Died               18 Jan 1626
Endowment   06 Jan 1947
Baptism          05 Jan 1947
The Christening tag is NOT Primary, and the Endowment tag is Primary.  Therefore, when I do a search, or look in the Picklist, etc. the person is sorted according to the Endowment date. I would love a way to mark ALL the Endowment tags as NOT Primary. This problem also occurs with Ordinance Baptisms. What would really be nice is if there was a way to make a tag NOT Primary in the Master Tag List. Then I could solve this problem with a couple of keystrokes instead of fixing them one at a time as I come across them.  Alternatively, the problem could be solved if you could tell the system to automatically mark the Christening tag as Primary when there is no Birth tag.  I even looked in the TMG Utility for a solution, but didn't find one.  Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Kim Derrick

Kim D


#2 Michael Hannah

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:38 AM

Hi Kim,
 
Perhaps it might help to understand how "Primary" works in TMG.
 
Only one tag among similar tags can be marked Primary, but this designation depends on all three factors being identical: the tag group, both of the Principals, and possibly the tag type. For all tag groups except “Other” only one tag regardless of tag type within that group with the same Principal(s) may be marked Primary. For the tag group “Other” only one tag of the same tag type with the same Principal(s) may be marked Primary.

 

The Primary tag of any type which is in the "Birth" group defines the beginning of life for a person.  By default both the tag types of "Baptism" and "Christening" are in that "Birth" group, since often a contemporary Baptism/Christening done shortly after birth is the only source record indicating the beginning of life for a person.  If no tag type in the Birth group is Primary, then the birth date will simply be blank in the lists.  If you select one of these tag types in the master Tag Type List it will show the "Tag Group" of that tag type.

 

I think your problem is caused by using the tag type of "Baptism" for the LDS baptism.  If you check the master Tag Type List (being sure that the box at the bottom is ticked to "Show LDS tag types") you will find a separate tag type named "BaptismLDS".  You will note that this tag type is intentionally in the "Other" tag group and not the "Birth" tag group.  If you will use that tag type instead of "Baptism" for your LDS baptism data, its date will not be used for the beginning of life since it is not in the Birth group.

 

I am not familiar with the TMG tag type "Endowment".  By default there is only an "EndowmentLDS" tag type in the "Other" group which therefore will not be used for the beginning of life.  Have you created the "Endowment" tag type in the "Birth" group?  If so, that is why it is operating in this manner.

 

Hope this gives you ideas,


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#3 Kim & Kelly Derrick

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:40 PM

The tag "Baptism" and "Endowment" were created when I imported GEDCOM PAF files many years ago. When I imported them, TMG automatically interpreted the PAF "LDS Baptism" and the PAF "LDS Endowment" as "Baptism" and "Endowment". I inherited those PAF files. Perhaps the person who originally started our projects in PAF used the wrong tags when inputting that data.

I'm guessing the next thing you're going to tell me is that I need to change all the Baptism and Endowment tags to BaptismLDS and EndowmentLDS tags? I guess that means I'll just have to live with the problem. I have 3818 Baptism tags and 3764 Endowment tags in the largest of my 4 projects. So I guess what really need is a way to group convert all the Baptism tags to BaptismLDS tags, and the same for Endowment,and I doubt there's a way to do that?

Kim D


#4 Kim & Kelly Derrick

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:03 PM

I just checked in my projects. Endowment is an Other tag, and yet this is the one that most often causes the problem. For some reason, I have quite a few (probably thousands) people who only have a Christening tag (not a Birth tag), and that Christening tag is NOT primary. This is a condition that has existed since I imported from GEDCOM PAF all those years ago. Maybe what I need is a way to make the Christening tag Primary.

Kim D


#5 Michael Hannah

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:01 PM

The tag "Baptism" and "Endowment" were created when I imported GEDCOM PAF files many years ago.

I know it is too late now, but when you import the TMG import process lets you choose what TMG tag type is to be used for each tag type in the importing file.
 

I'm guessing the next thing you're going to tell me is that I need to change all the Baptism and Endowment tags to BaptismLDS and EndowmentLDS tags?

Well, ahem, yes, if that is the event which they are really identifying.
 

So I guess what really need is a way to group convert all the Baptism tags to BaptismLDS tags, and the same for Endowment,and I doubt there's a way to do that?

Oh but there is a way. It is called the TMG Utility, a donorware program written by John Cardinal. It has a feature called "Change Event Type" which can do exactly that. And if you have set a Flag to identify only "some" people who need this change it will restrict the change to only those people, otherwise all such events will be changed.

 

Maybe what I need is a way to make the Christening tag Primary.

Yes, that would help a lot. But I know of no way to do that except view each person, select the Christening tag, and hit the '*' asterisk key to make the tag Primary. You can filter for all people who have no Primary event in the Birth group to get a list.

 

Endowment is an Other tag, and yet this is the one that most often causes the problem.

I assume by the "problem" you mean what you mentioned earlier:

... search, or look in the Picklist, etc. the person is sorted according to the Endowment date

If the Picklist sort is set to "Surname, Given name, Birth date" I know of no way for it to sort other than by a date from a tag in the Birth group. The Picklist has a column heading for "Birth". Are you seeing the Endowment date listed in that column?  If Endowment is really in the "Other" group I don't understand why you are seeing what you are telling me you are seeing.


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#6 Kim & Kelly Derrick

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:44 AM

The tag "Baptism" and "Endowment" were created when I imported GEDCOM PAF files many years ago.

I know it is too late now, but when you import the TMG import process lets you choose what TMG tag type is to be used for each tag type in the importing file.

Yeah, but I didn't know enough about TMG at the time.  Hindsight is great, isn't it. 

 

>I'm guessing the next thing you're going to tell me is that I need to change all the Baptism and Endowment tags to BaptismLDS and EndowmentLDS tags?

Well, ahem, yes, if that is the event which they are really identifying.
 

So I guess what really need is a way to group convert all the Baptism tags to BaptismLDS tags, and the same for Endowment,and I doubt there's a way to do that?

Oh but there is a way. It is called the TMG Utility, a donorware program written by John Cardinal. It has a feature called "Change Event Type" which can do exactly that. And if you have set a Flag to identify only "some" people who need this change it will restrict the change to only those people, otherwise all such events will be changed.

THANK YOU!!!  I use the Utility all the time, but not for this.  I had forgotten that the Utility would do this.  I have now converted all the Baptism tags to BaptismLDS.  i still have a problem that this didn't fix (see below).

 

Maybe what I need is a way to make the Christening tag Primary.

Yes, that would help a lot. But I know of no way to do that except view each person, select the Christening tag, and hit the '*' asterisk key to make the tag Primary. You can filter for all people who have no Primary event in the Birth group to get a list.

Yeah, but now I have realized that the problem is the SealParent tag which is in the Birth tag group. I apparently have over 300 people who have a Christening date (without a Birth date) and a SealParent tag (and usually an EndowmentLDS tag).  TMG makes the SealParent tag primary, not the Christening tag.  When you look at these people as children, the "birth date" shown is the SealParent date (not the Christening date).  In other words, I've got Lisa Smith, no birth date, christened 1620, sealed to her parents in 1974.  When you look at her listed as a child under her parents, her "birth date" is shown as 1974.  I have followed your suggestion and found a way to write a Project Explorer filter that gives me a list of over 300 people with the problem (SealParent overrides Christening), so I can fix them one at a time.  I wish there was a faster way to fix it.

Endowment is an Other tag, and yet this is the one that most often causes problem

I assume by the "problem" you mean what you mentioned earlier,

>... search, or look in the Picklist, etc. the person is sorted according to the Endowment date

If the Picklist sort is set to "Surname, Given name, Birth date" I know of no way for it to sort other than by a date from a tag in the Birth group. The Picklist has a column heading for "Birth". Are you seeing the Endowment date listed in that column?  If Endowment is really in the "Other" group I don't understand why you are seeing what you are telling me you are seeing.

I miss spoke when I included the Picklist in the problem.  I didn't realize what was really causing the problem until our discussions here.  What is really causing the problem is the SealParent tag.  The dates on the Endowment and SealParent are the same, so I erroneously thought the Endowment tag was involved.  It is the SealParent tag that is actually causing the problem.  The problem is that the SealParent tag overrides the Christening tag.

I appreciate all your help.  I hadn't looked at the problem in terms of Tag Groups.  That is the heart of the matter - SealParent is overriding Christening and both are Birth Group tags.  Thank you for having the patience to help me see what was really going on.  It would be helpful if TMG gave the Christening date a higher priority than the SealParent date.  Failing that - the Christening date becomes Primary when there is no Birth date.  Failing that -  a global way to toggle Primary.  Failing all those - Project Explorer and fix the problems one at a time.  THANKS AGAIN :D!!  I am  :notworthy:.   


Kim D


#7 Terry Reigel

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:48 PM

 Yeah, but now I have realized that the problem is the SealParent tag which is in the Birth tag group. I apparently have over 300 people who have a Christening date (without a Birth date) and a SealParent tag (and usually an EndowmentLDS tag).  TMG makes the SealParent tag primary, not the Christening tag.

Actually, TMG makes the first Tag entered in the Birth Group primary - there is nothing special about the SealParent Tag.

That is the heart of the matter - SealParent is overriding Christening and both are Birth Group tags.  Thank you for having the patience to help me see what was really going on.  It would be helpful if TMG gave the Christening date a higher priority than the SealParent date.

It doesn't give either priority. It uses the Tag in the Birth Group that is marked as primary, which should be the first one entered.

You can solve the problem of the SealParent Tag being in the Birth Group and being primary. Create an alternate SealParent tag in the Other events group (with a slightly different name). Use the TMG Utility to change all the old SealParent tags to your new tag type. You can change the name of the standard SealParent tag type to something else if you want to avoid confusion.

However this will leave you with no primary Birth Group Tag for those people - removing the Primary Tag does not automatically make another Tag primary. So I'm not sure this helps you much.
Terry

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#8 Kim & Kelly Derrick

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:17 AM

 Yeah, but now I have realized that the problem is the SealParent tag which is in the Birth tag group. I apparently have over 300 people who have a Christening date (without a Birth date) and a SealParent tag (and usually an EndowmentLDS tag).  TMG makes the SealParent tag primary, not the Christening tag.

Actually, TMG makes the first Tag entered in the Birth Group primary - there is nothing special about the SealParent Tag.

>That is the heart of the matter - SealParent is overriding Christening and both are Birth Group tags.  Thank you for having the patience to help me see what was really going on.  It would be helpful if TMG gave the Christening date a higher priority than the SealParent date.

It doesn't give either priority. It uses the Tag in the Birth Group that is marked as primary, which should be the first one entered.

These were imported.  I happen to know that the Christening information would have been entered first.  When the file was imported, TMG made the SealParent tag primary.

You can solve the problem of the SealParent Tag being in the Birth Group and being primary. Create an alternate SealParent tag in the Other events group (with a slightly different name). Use the TMG Utility to change all the old SealParent tags to your new tag type. You can change the name of the standard SealParent tag type to something else if you want to avoid confusion.

However this will leave you with no primary Birth Group Tag for those people - removing the Primary Tag does not automatically make another Tag primary. So I'm not sure this helps you much.

I was going to ask next what would happen if I changed the SealParent group to Other.  The only reason I could see that it would be in the Birth group is because it relates the person to their parents.  Would changing it to Other still preserve that connection.  If so, then I don't see why the SealParent tag isn't in the Other group, as are other LDS ordinances.

It's too bad it won't automatically switch those Christening tags to Primary, especially since that would be the only remaining Birth Group tag these particular people would have.  Switching the Christening tag to Primary (when there is no Birth tag) is the crux of the matter.  I am working my way through the list!

THANKS again to Mike & Terry!!!

:D

Kim D


#9 Michael Hannah

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:09 PM

Kim wondered:

I was going to ask next what would happen if I changed the SealParent group to Other.  The only reason I could see that it would be in the Birth group is because it relates the person to their parents.  Would changing it to Other still preserve that connection.  If so, then I don't see why the SealParent tag isn't in the Other group, as are other LDS ordinances.

Well, you cannot actually change the group of an existing Standard tag type to a different group.  But you can create a new tag type in the different group and use TMG-Utility to change all "tags" from the one tag type to the other.

 

Of course, if you wanted to get really non-standard, you "could" rename the Standard tag type, then create the new tag type with the old name in the new group.  But that might be really confusing to anyone who looked at your actual TMG project.

 

Since I am not an LDS member, I don't have any real knowledge of usages of their tag types.  In fact, whenever I receive an Import file with these events, I choose not to import them into my TMG project so I never encounter these issues.  I tested some earlier versions of TMG and notice that the LDS tag types you mention have always been in these "groups".  What I find even more interesting, is that the "SealChild" is in the "Other" group, but "SealParent" is in "Birth" and "SealSpouse" is in "Marriage".  I presume this is due to some historically decided upon reason.  Perhaps (but I don't know) if a file for Import only had "Seal..." events in it, by defaulting to the Birth and Marriage groups some sort of parent and spouse linkages would still be able to be made.  But that is just conjecture on my part.

 

As for preserving the parent/child relationships, changing existing event tags within a TMG project from one tag type to another would not affect those relationships.  TMG has separate "relationship" tag types which either you add or were created as part of an Import.  While TMG has a number of names for such tag types ("-Adopted" "-Biological" "-Foster" etc.) they all do the same thing: link one parent to one child.  Again for these "relationship" tag types the issue of "Primary" is important in TMG.  Regardless of the names of the tag types, whichever two "relationship" tags (one for linking to a mother and the other for linking to a father) are set as the "Primary" relationships for a child, those linkages are used by TMG as the only biological/genetic linkages.  Any other relationship tags are simply for information.  Within TMG all the "Seal..." tags are separate and are simply "events", which as you have discovered can imply the birth event if they are in the Birth group.

 

Hope this helps explain some things,


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#10 Terry Reigel

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

I happen to know that the Christening information would have been entered first.  When the file was imported, TMG made the SealParent tag primary.

Kim,

They may have been entered first in the original program, but it would appear that on import the SealParent tags were processed first, and thus "entered" first in TMG. Not knowing the details of the import process I can't say why.

I was going to ask next what would happen if I changed the SealParent group to Other.  The only reason I could see that it would be in the Birth group is because it relates the person to their parents.  Would changing it to Other still preserve that connection.  If so, then I don't see why the SealParent tag isn't in the Other group, as are other LDS ordinances.


I have no idea why they are in those groups.

THANKS again to Mike & Terry!!! :D

 
You're welcome, Kim.
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#11 Kim & Kelly Derrick

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:27 PM

To Michael:  We've decided to change the group of the SealParent tag to Other.  (I'll do the renaming, etc. that is required as outlined above.)

 

To Terry:  I can't even possibly imagine why TMG would process the SealParent tags first.  All the Seal... tags should be in the Other group.  PAF did not list SealParent with Birth and Christening information.  They didn't list SealSpouse with Marriage.  They put all the Seal... info separately down at the bottom of the page.

 

Now that I understand better how this all works (thanks to you guys),  I think these situations where the SealParent tag overrides the Christening tag is a programming mistake.  TMG doesn't let SealParent override the Birth tag.  In situations where there is no Birth tag, but there is a Christening tag, the Christening tag should be made Primary by default.  It can't be that unusual to have hundreds of people with Christening tags, but not Birth tags.  I realize that when Christening tags are entered in TMG, t  I cannot see any situation where the SealParent tag should ever be Primary, and it shouldn't be in the Birth tag group.  I don't know if it would be easier to fix the problem by changing SealParent to the Other group, or making the SealParent tag never Primary.   (Probably the latter?)

 

When you enter a new person with only a Christening tag (no Birth tag), the Christening tag is Primary.  The problem comes when you import data.  When you import data the SealParent tag should never override the Birth tag or the Christening tag. :unsure:


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#12 Terry Reigel

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:34 PM

To Terry:  I can't even possibly imagine why TMG would process the SealParent tags first.

I expect it processes the events in the order they are found in the file being imported. Was this project imported from GEDCOM or directly from the original file, by GenBridge?

Now that I understand better how this all works (thanks to you guys), I think these situations where the SealParent tag overrides the Christening tag is a programming mistake.


I don't think there is any program feature that makes SealParent "override" Christening. When there are multiple tags in the Birth group being imported, in general TMG has no way to know which is supposed to be primary. In this case a human would know that SealParent shouldn't be, but there can be any number of Birth group tags, including any number of Birth Tags. So the program doesn't try to evaluate the merit of one over the others, but uses a simple rule, which I believe is to make the first one found Primary, for lack of any better information. I think that's what happened here - simply the result of the way the data was arranged on the imported file.
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#13 Kim & Kelly Derrick

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

The import file would have been a GEDCOM or a PAF.  I don't remember which.  

 

I still can't imagine why the SealParent tag would have been processed first.  

 

If the SealParent tag was in the Other group, in instances where the only Birth group tag is Christening, then would the Christening tag have been made Primary?


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#14 Michael Hannah

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:55 AM

I still can't imagine why the SealParent tag would have been processed first.

As Terry mentioned, whether it was in a PAF or a GEDCOM file, if it is physically first in the file it will be processed first and be set as Primary.  The Import processes from the first line of the file to the last, in order.

 

If the SealParent tag was in the Other group, in instances where the only Birth group tag is Christening, then would the Christening tag have been made Primary?

Yes, if in an Import for a person there is only one tag which is in the Birth group, it will be the first (and only) one processed and thus become Primary.  Since I exclude the LDS tags from the Import, this is what happens for me.

 

As I mentioned above, Kim, I agree about the group assignment. I can only "assume" this was done for historical reasons to satisfy requests by LDS users, but I have no real knowledge of that decision. As I said, like you I think they make more sense in the "Other" group. But since I am not LDS and don't use these tags at all I am not qualified to express a meaningful opinion.


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#15 Kim & Kelly Derrick

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:36 AM

I still can't imagine why the SealParent tag would have been processed first.

As Terry mentioned, whether it was in a PAF or a GEDCOM file, if it is physically first in the file it will be processed first and be set as Primary.  The Import processes from the first line of the file to the last, in order.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say.  I used PAF before I used TMG.  Birth and Christening are the top two entries under the person's name, similar to TMG.  This is true on the new person input screen, and the PAF version of the detail view.  It's logical to start with the person's name, then birth, or in this case Christening information.  In PAF, ALL the LDS ordinance tags are down at the bottom of the page.  If TMG somehow pulls out the SealParent tag before the Christening information, it's behaving in a totally illogical manner.  I'm just going to mention it to support.


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#16 Terry Reigel

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:09 AM

 
That's exactly what I've been trying to say.  I used PAF before I used TMG.  Birth and Christening are the top two entries under the person's name, similar to TMG.  This is true on the new person input screen, and the PAF version of the detail view.  It's logical to start with the person's name, then birth, or in this case Christening information.  In PAF, ALL the LDS ordinance tags are down at the bottom of the page.  If TMG somehow pulls out the SealParent tag before the Christening information, it's behaving in a totally illogical manner.  I'm just going to mention it to support.



Kim,

It doesn't matter a bit where they are on the screen. TMG can't see the PAF screen. Where are they in File? That's the only think the import process sees. What do you see when you look at the PAF or GEDCOM file you imported? NotePad will let you look at a GEDCOM file, and I suspect also the PAF file, though I don't think I've ever looked at one.
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#17 Kim & Kelly Derrick

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:48 AM

TMG support has reported the problem as a bug.  They are going to move the SealParent tag from the Birth group to the Other group.


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#18 Jim Byram

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:14 AM

TMG support has reported the problem as a bug.  They are going to move the SealParent tag from the Birth group to the Other group.

Not necessarily. This is not a bug, but a design change. Doing this has several complications that would be difficult to resolve.

 

If you want to have your project updated to make the SealParent tags non-primary and the Christening tags primary when both are present, send me a PM and I'll give you instructions for sending me your project.


Edited by Jim Byram, 30 April 2014 - 10:58 AM.





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