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#1 Peter Tarkkonen

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 10:07 PM

Need some help and ideas please

 

I would like to have a

XX sentence "XX married YY (widow of AA) on the ...." but

YY sentence would look like "YY married XX on the..."  or maybe even "YY married XX (widow of BB) on the..."

 

And even better is someone has widowed several times, then list all  previous spouses.

 

Any ideas how to do it?

 

Peter



#2 Michael Hannah

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:43 AM

Hi Peter,
 
The problem is that in the Marriage sentence there is no variable which can link to a Principal's "other" spouse.  (If they had several spouses, it would be an issue of "which" other spouse.)  I know of no way to do this other than by manually entering the name of the deceased "other" spouse as text for the sentence.
 
My habit for such text is to use split memos, and reserve one of the memo parts for this specific text.
 
For example, I have some other uses for [M1] and [M2], but might reserve [M3] for a deceased spouse of the Groom and [M4] for the deceased spouse of the Bride.
 
So the "Female" (or Role "Bride") sentence might be:
 
[P] married [PO]<(widower of [M3])><[PARO]><[M1]><[D]><[M2]><[L]>
 
And the "Male" (or Role "Groom") sentence might be:
 
[P] married [PO]<(widow of [M4])><[PARO]><[M1]><[D]><[M2]><[L]>
 
Then all that would be needed is to enter the deceased spouse's name in the appropriate split memo part, such as:
 
in a ceremony performed by Fred Smith, Minister of the Gospel, at 4 in the afternoon||at the home of the bride's parents||Sarah Baker||John Brown
 
The female sentence output would look something like:
 
"Sally Green married Harry Brown (widower of Sarah Baker), son of James Brown and Harriett Frost, in a ceremony performed by Fred Smith, Minister of the Gospel, at 4 in the afternoon on 19 Jan 1946 at the home of the bride's parents in Ferndale, Oakland County, Michigan."
 
This might be a good example where the new ability to have Reminder text specific to a particular role probably would be useful.
 
Hope this gives you ideas.
Michael
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#3 Peter Tarkkonen

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:36 PM

Thank You Michael,

 

Yes, you gave me good idea. Did not think using Memo before.

 

One thing I have missed few times before is "relational link" to a person. F.ex. in this case  [M3] = "p#1234" refering to Sarah Baker's TMG#.

 

Peter



#4 Peter Tarkkonen

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:51 PM

One more thought Michael.

 

How about adding witness roles like "Groom's earlier late wife" and "Bride's earlier late husband".

 

Also a bit confused here what version 9.02 will do for "roles"?

 

Peter

 

 

PS. I already have in Death sentence widower ie. "Harry was widowed on 2000 when Sarah deceased." TMG gives a great possibility to add more info via sentences. Hopefully people use those.



#5 Michael Hannah

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:42 AM

How about adding witness roles like "Groom's earlier late wife" and "Bride's earlier late husband"... I already have in Death sentence widower...

Good question, Peter. Yes, that will work very well also. Sometimes I use a specific Role (like your "widower" in a Death tag) and sometimes I just use a Memo part. For me it usually depends upon how frequently I am likely to use the Role as to whether I will bother to create it. As I often use it in a Death tag, and only want the widow(er)'s name, I have created a Role similar to yours. Further I like seeing the Witnessed Death tag in the survivor's Details View so I know they might remarry. I am most likely to use a Memo part for text that is likely to vary from tag to tag. But in your case of just wanting the prior husband's or wife's name, either a special role or a Memo part would work.

One advantage of the Memo part is that the Marriage tag will not show up in the prior husband's or wife's Details View as a Witnessed tag, since they are not actually linked as a Witness which using a Role would do. If you do choose to define a Role to link for this purpose, you may wish to avoid any output (after their death) from that Marriage tag in the prior husband's or wife's narrative. As I sometimes use the Report Option to output memos which are not included in the sentences, I have to be sure to exclude any possible output from such a role in the Witness' narrative. What works best for me is to define such a Witness' sentence as:
--<[M0]><[WM0]>
(Note those are 'zeros' not 'ohs'.) That will prevent any output from this tag in that Witness' narrative regardless of Report Options.
 

Also a bit confused here what version 9.02 will do for "roles"?

Version 9.02 will do the same thing for roles TMG has always done "except" that any variation of a Role variable now will always output based on all people assigned that role. For a good description of this one change to roles in 9.02, see Terry's article here.
 

One thing I have missed few times before is "relational link" to a person. F.ex. in this case  [M3] = "p#1234" refering to Sarah Baker's TMG#.

But that is exactly what TMG's Witness feature provides: a relational link to another person's name based on their ID number. In a case where you desire to link to only one person's name, you just need to have a unique Role to which you only link that one person, just like your widower role.

Hope this gives you ideas,
Michael
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#6 Peter Tarkkonen

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:22 AM

Thank You again Mike!

 

What I was meaning with my "relational link" was to use it in MEMO only. Exactly as you explained before, it is not always wise to make a role. Sometimes a quick add link in memo would do the job. Like typing a long note including persons in it. There a link would be nice to have.

 

Tested the role in this marriage case and works fine. I am still thinking about the witness sentence. In this case if there is a sentence something like "After her death, Harry married Sally Green". Descendants might even find half cousins that way. :)

 

Peter



#7 Michael Hannah

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:50 AM

Hmmm... Interesting "wish" for an enhancement, Peter.

I presume you would wish for a new set of variables for the various name parts to be used in both Sentences and Memos similar to the 'R' set of variables, but which used the TMG ID number instead of a rolename? Maybe using the letter 'I' for ID, something like:
[I:123], [IF:123], [IG:123], [IFS:123], [IGS:123], [IL:123], etc.

Is that similar to what you would like? Might be convenient, but of course the advantage of linking as a Witness is that you can tell in that Person's Details View all the tags to which they are linked. These proposed 'I' variables might be an issue to find, just like embedded Citations are an issue to find. (And just like text for a person's name in a Memo part is an issue to find.)

Still, something to think about.
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#8 Peter Tarkkonen

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:04 AM

Very much so Mike.

 

Of cause even better would be wysiwyg like

 

Family story would be written like "At early 2000 family of Mike Hannah lived in Los Ranchos.......".  Now link "Mike Hannah" will take one to "Mike Hannah's" data.

Especially when using SecondSite as well that would be a great feature.

 

Peter



#9 Michael Hannah

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:10 PM

If your only/primary goal is linkage to people in SecondSite, but do not want to link them as a Witness within TMG, SecondSite can already do that with its PageLink variable. This SS code would work well with the Memo part method I mentioned above. I use this for certain purposes, and have the Person ID# show up in SecondSite as a superscript following their name, which becomes a hypertext link to that person's data. For example:
John Jones[SUP:][HID:][SS:][PageLink:]123;123[:PageLink][:SS][:HID][:SUP]
Hope this gives you more ideas,
Michael
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#10 Peter Tarkkonen

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:43 PM

Wonderful Mike!

Need to test that

Peter



#11 Peter Tarkkonen

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:34 PM

One more tought/question Mike.

 

If in wedding tag P1 and P2 always would be in certain sex order ie. like P1 always male and P2 always female (would work as long as Partners are not spoken about), also witness sentence could be done very nicely.

In end of witness, after death, could read  something "His/her widow XXX was later married....". This could be based on witness sex sentences.

 

In my understanding this would work beautifully, but only of P1 and P2 sex is "fixed".

 

And if I could recall right with TMG Utility rearrangement of P1 and P2 could be done. Can't check until TMG Utility is compatible with 9.03

 

Peter



#12 Michael Hannah

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:25 AM

One more thought/question Mike.

Only one more, Peter? [Chuckle]

 

 If in wedding tag P1 and P2 always would be in certain sex order...
also witness sentence could be done very nicely... based on witness sex sentences. 
In my understanding this would work beautifully, but only of P1 and P2 sex is "fixed".

Only necessary if you have to know in a Witness sentence which Principal is which SEX.  Then having the sex "fixed" for P1 and P2 is a essential. But it is not necessary in the Principal sentence itself if you use P and PO and use the SEX-specific sentence feature of TMG.  Likewise separate male/female Witness roles are not necessary unless you need to know in some other role which Witness is which SEX.

 

Within the global Tag Type Definition you can construct separate sentences for male and female and they will be used based on the SEX flag of the subject/focus person of that sentence, whether Principal or Witness. Thus you could only have a Principal role which uses P and PO but have different Male and Female sentences for that one role. Then however the Principals are assigned TMG will use the appropriate sentence.

 

The same is true of the Witnesses. Instead of both "Groom's earlier late wife" and "Bride's earlier late husband" roles you could simply have a single role of "Principal's earlier late spouse" with different Male and Female sentences for that one role. Then the appropriate sentence would be used based on the SEX of that assigned Witness.  If you had only one Principal role the Witness sentence couldn't use/know which Principal to obtain spouse's name.  And that single Principal role couldn't know whether the generic "late spouse" was their late spouse.  If you had a Witness sentence which output, it would have to be generic perhaps something like:

 

Male sentence: Following his death his widow remarried <[D]>

Female sentence: Following her death her widower remarried <[D]>


In other words, "fixing" the sex of P1 and P2 and having separate male/female Witness roles allows a lot more precision in the construction of sentences, but if carefully constructed more generic sentences are sufficient then such "fixing" is not required and single roles with male/female sentences can be made to work.

Some users choose to define separate roles for male and female because the rolename itself provides a memory aid, and they can refer to the specific person with the appropriate sex in some other role.  Further they can use the optional feature of TMG to define that role to be only appropriate for a given SEX, and TMG then will warn when the assignment does not match. Others choose to limit the number of different roles and let TMG automatically use the appropriate sentence based on the SEX flag of the focus person. TMG provides the features to let you do it whichever way is most convenient for you.

 

And if I could recall right with TMG Utility rearrangement of P1 and P2 could be done. Can't check until TMG Utility is compatible with 9.03

You may have missed it, Peter, but I believe John announced that the existing TMG Utility will work if you simply download and install an updated "compatibility" file.  I know this was true for 9.02, but believe it to also be true for 9.03. See: http://www.johncardi...mpatibility.htm


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#13 Peter Tarkkonen

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:37 PM

Mike!

 

Thank you very much for this help. Key element was sex based sentences. I was not aware (or remembering) of that.

 

Now I have additional info at the wedding sentence refering back to if new spouse is a widow and to who he/she was married to. They can also be both widows and correct sentence show up in each one of their timeline.

 

As extra to this, also deceased person has a extra sentence refering to widows new wife/huspand. That is a person link so reader can jump right to widows new spouse.

 

I use both Journals but mainly SecondSite. I publish all in the net. SecondSite pages are very popular and get 3.000-4.000 visitors monthly. Nice to service them and give more info. In SS site I use 1 person per page format and all text gives more "meat" to the page. And people do not get confused about extra links because all is relative to main person on that page.

 

Once again Thank You Mike for your help!

 

Peter



#14 Michael Hannah

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:16 AM

Glad to give you ideas, Peter.

 

I also prefer SecondSite with one page per person as my primary output format.  That is why I especially like the PageLink variable I mentioned above.


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#15 Terry Reigel

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

Peter,

 

The PageLink variable seems to me like the hard way. Why not just enter the former spouses as Witnesses, with appropriate roles? You probably don't want mention of this wedding in their narratives, so use an exclusion marker for Sentence for the Role, but people in the current marriage use a sentence like:

 

[Groom] married [PO] <(widow of [R:Former husband])> on the ....

 

and 

 

[Bride] married [PO] <(widower of [R:Former wife])> on the ....

 

to include the former spouse's names.


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#16 Peter Tarkkonen

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 10:05 PM

Thank you Terry!

Actually did it as you said. Also included witness sentence ie. "Her/his widow xx and yy married ...."

Pagelink was for other use ie. when there is a story written, would be great to link people mentioned directly to their SS page.

Peter

PS. Have few people married 5 times and would be great to cross reference all them in each others text. Have not done that yet :))




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