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Bibliography output incorrect using split CDs


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#1 Ron Siem

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:46 AM

Hello:

As with most users I am now going thru and getting my sources and citations correct. I am a lumper and primarily creating one source for each newspaper, cemetery, church, etc. I am entering most of the footnote information into the Citation Detail screen.

My problem isn't so much the footnote/short note output as the Bibliography. Because I am not entering all the details into the Master Source List the Bibliography shows "unknown" output.

Then I saw articles in TMG forums/websites on using Split CD's to format output and thought I would try this method for the Bibliography.

Example: Have Master Source for Passenger Lists – NY Passenger Lists using the Source Type: Ship Passenger List (filmed).

Title: New York Passenger Lists 1820-1950
Record Type: Passenger Manifest
All remaining fields blank

Modified the Bibliography to use split CD's

<[ITAL:][CD2][:ITAL]><,[CD3]><,[CD4]><,[CD5]:><,[CD6].>

Original setup: <[ITAL:][SERIES][:ITAL]><. [FILM]><, [ROLL]><. [PUBLISHER ADDRESS]: [PUBLISHER].>

Edited the Citation Detail to use the Split CD's:

|| Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at New York, New York, 1820-1897||National Archives Microfilm Publication M237, 675 rolls||M237_436,Line: 22; List Number: 518||National Archives||Washington, D.C.
Microfilm Roll: M237_436; Line: 22; List Number: 518; Records 290 and 291.

Ran the Report -> Individual Narrative -> Individual Narrative preview with sources (TMG v 8)

The Bibliography output just shows the split cd codes but no data.

<[CD2]><,[CD3]><,[CD4]><,[CD5]:><,[CD6].>.

Complete citation detail in text format:


"New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957", digital images,Ancestry.com (http://www.ancestry.com : accessed 18 January 2012), manifest, Lessing , Hamburg, Germany to New York, arriving 4 May 1881, Frederick Buckmann; citing National Archives Microfilm Publication M237, 675 rolls; Records of the U.S. Customs Service, Record Group 36; National Archives, Washington, D.C.
Records of the Immigration and Naturalization Service; National Archives, Washington, D.C.

|| Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at New York, New York, 1820-1897||National Archives Microfilm Publication M237, 675 rolls||M237_436,Line: 22; List Number: 518||National Archives||Washington, D.C.
Microfilm Roll: M237_436; Line: 22; List Number: 518; Records 290 and 291.

Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at New York, New York, 1820-1897;


Tried removing all spaces between main CD1 entry and the split CD's but still got same output as above.

Questions:

1) Can you use split CD's for Bibliographies like Citations?
2) What is causing the codes to appear but no data?
3) If I can't use Split CD's for Bibliographies then how do you get the right data to appear in the output without using individual sources for each person/record?

Thanks.

Ron Siem

#2 Terry Reigel

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 05:49 PM

Ron,

You can't use CDs in th Bibliography templates. The CD is designed for information that is specific to individual citations, and there is only one Bibliography entry produced for each Source. Since there can be any number of citations, with different CDs, associated with a single source, there is no way to decide which one is to be used.

I suspect the codes are appearing because the CD is not recognized in the bibliography, so they are treated as ordinary text.

If the information you are putting in the CD is essential to creating a suitable bibliography output, there is no choice but to split the Sources so that it can be put in the Source Definition.
Terry

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#3 Ron Siem

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 05:40 PM

Thanks Terry for your reply.

Based on your reponse, then how do lumpers manage to get their bibliographies to come out correctly (or have partially correct) if they are not entering all the data into the Source fields in the Master Source List?

#4 Terry Reigel

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 08:36 PM

I suspect it is either by 1) ignoring the bibilography (that's what I do) or 2) they satisfy themselves with a more generic rendering of the source in the bibliography.

If neither of these works for you, I think perhaps the answer is that the lumper method doesn't work for you.
Terry

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The Second Edition of my book, A Primer for The Master Genealogist, is now available
. For more information see my website.

#5 Michael Hannah

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 08:35 AM

Hi Ron,

I am an inveterate lumper and regularly use the Bibliography, so maybe my experiences will help. I think the key to this lumping is how you view the Bibliography. I view it as simply a list of information "about" the sources I used, not what I found in those sources. Thus I "enter all the data into the Source fields" that is about the entire source, e.g. everything about the entire book, or in your case everything about the entire set of data which is the "New York Passenger Lists 1820-1950". All those source elements are included in my Bibliography template. But I do not include all of these elements in my Full Footnote template. Full Footnote includes just enough (e.g. the title, author, etc.) to be able to clearly identify and find that one full entry in the Bibliography. My Short Footnote template includes just enough to find the earlier Full Footnote. My CD for footnotes includes just "what" specific data I found that relates only to this event, and "where" in this source I found that specific data. This method makes my footnotes shorter, and only prints everything about the source once, in the Bibliograply.

For me this works well as a printed document. It also works well in Second Site, since I choose the option to generate Source Page Entries, and have those Source Sentences use the Bibliography template. For Second Site Citations I choose the options of "Full, then Short" and to "Show Citation Source Numbers". That way the citations look very much like the printed document, and the source number is a hyperlink from the brief citation directly to the Bibliography-like source page entry.

Hope this gives you ideas,

Michael


#6 Ron Siem

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:02 PM

Michael:

Thanks for your detailed reply. I think I understand what you are stating. Could you give me an example of a source entry with your footnotes and bibliograpy entry as described in your initial response? I am a visual learner and if I see an actual example it will help me apply the concept.

Thanks.

Ron Siem



Hi Ron,

I am an inveterate lumper and regularly use the Bibliography, so maybe my experiences will help. I think the key to this lumping is how you view the Bibliography. I view it as simply a list of information "about" the sources I used, not what I found in those sources. Thus I "enter all the data into the Source fields" that is about the entire source, e.g. everything about the entire book, or in your case everything about the entire set of data which is the "New York Passenger Lists 1820-1950". All those source elements are included in my Bibliography template. But I do not include all of these elements in my Full Footnote template. Full Footnote includes just enough (e.g. the title, author, etc.) to be able to clearly identify and find that one full entry in the Bibliography. My Short Footnote template includes just enough to find the earlier Full Footnote. My CD for footnotes includes just "what" specific data I found that relates only to this event, and "where" in this source I found that specific data. This method makes my footnotes shorter, and only prints everything about the source once, in the Bibliograply.

For me this works well as a printed document. It also works well in Second Site, since I choose the option to generate Source Page Entries, and have those Source Sentences use the Bibliography template. For Second Site Citations I choose the options of "Full, then Short" and to "Show Citation Source Numbers". That way the citations look very much like the printed document, and the source number is a hyperlink from the brief citation directly to the Bibliography-like source page entry.

Hope this gives you ideas,



#7 Michael Hannah

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:15 PM

Sure, Ron.

I used my source #163 of my custom source type "Source of Records (Multi-Volume)", as that is a passenger list similar to your example.

--General tab--
Abbreviation: PASS USA 1880 Germans to America vol 36
Title: Germans to America
Short Title: Germans to America
Subtitle: 1880
Publish Date: 1994
Publisher: Scholarly Resources Inc
Publisher Address: Wilmington, Delaware
Volume: Vol 36

--Supplemental tab--- (Annotation is my custom alias for the Source Element "Comments")
Annotation: ISBN 0-8420-2279-1. This is one volume of a set of passenger lists.

--Attachments tab--
linked to repostory #1 with:
Reference: R325.243/G373/v.36

Repository #1 is:
Name - Other: Albuquerque Public Library Genealogical Collection
Address: Albuquerque, Bernalillo County, New Mexico, USA
Memo: Separate public library facility for the special collection of genealogical material.

--Templates-- (I use CD for "where" in the source, and CM for "what" I found with "my" comments in brackets.)
Bibliography:
<[COMPILER], compiler. >[ITAL:][TITLE][:ITAL]. [VOLUME]<, [ITAL:][SUBTITLE][:ITAL]>. < [PUBLISHER ADDRESS]: >[PUBLISHER]<, [PUBLISH DATE]>. <[REPOSITORY REFERENCE]. >[REPOSITORY]<, [REPOSITORY ADDRESS]><. [ANNOTATION]>

Full footnote:
<[COMPILER], compiler, >[ITAL:][TITLE][:ITAL]. [VOLUME]<, [ITAL:][SUBTITLE][:ITAL]>. (<[PUBLISHER ADDRESS]: >[PUBLISHER]<, [PUBLISH DATE]>)<; [CD]><. Cited as [ITAL:][SHORT SUBTITLE][:ITAL]><. [CM]>

Short footnote:
<[COMPILER]; ><[ITAL:][SHORT TITLE][:ITAL], ><[ITAL:][SHORT SUBTITLE][:ITAL], >[VOLUME]<: [CD]><. [CM]>

=========================

Two example citations:
Cited to Johanna's Birth tag:
CD: page 292, Ship- KOELN, from- Bremen, to- Baltimore, arrived- 07 Oct 1880
CM: ROGGENBECK, JOHANNA, age-25, from- province of Prussia

--I did not include her occupation or destination in the CM on the citation to her Birth tag, as that data is not relevant to her Birth. However, I do include that data in the citation to her separate Immigratn tag.--

Cited to Albert's Immigratn tag:
CD: page 292; Ship- KOELN, from- Bremen, to- Baltimore, arrived- 07 Oct 1880
CM: GILLE, ROBERT, age-24, male, occupation- not known, from- province of Prussia and unknown village, destination- Wisconsin. \[Future spouse Johanna Roggenbeck next in the passenger list, but with a different destination.\]

=========================

Single "lumped" Bibliography output:
Germans to America. Vol 36, 1880. Wilmington, Delaware: Scholarly Resources Inc, 1994. R325.243/G373/v.36. Albuquerque Public Library Genealogical Collection, Albuquerque, Bernalillo County, New Mexico, USA. ISBN 0-8420-2279-1. This is one volume of a set of passenger lists.

Johanna's Birth Full footnote:
Germans to America. Vol 36, 1880. (Wilmington, Delaware: Scholarly Resources Inc, 1994); page 292, Ship- KOELN, from- Bremen, to- Baltimore, arrived- 07 Oct 1880. ROGGENBECK, JOHANNA, age-25, from- province of Prussia

Albert's Immigratn Short footnote:
Germans to America, Vol 36: page 292; Ship- KOELN, from- Bremen, to- Baltimore, arrived- 07 Oct 1880. GILLE, ROBERT, age-24, male, occupation- not known, from- province of Prussia and unknown village, destination- Wisconsin. [Future spouse Johanna Roggenbeck next in the passenger list, but with a different destination.]

=========================

Hope this gives you ideas,

Michael


#8 Ron Siem

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 04:46 PM

Michael:

Thanks for the reply. I understand better but still missing a piece that maybe you can clarify for me. Take the simple example of a Family Interview source using the Interview source type. I only want to create one Family Interview source and use it for multiple family interviews rather than create multiple sources for each individual interview. The source fields are shown:

Title: Family Member Interview
Informant:
Interviewer: Ron Siem
Date:
Informant Address:

I have left the Informant, Date and Informant Address fields blank because I may have several interviews of several different persons (informants) over a span of time (multiple dates) and have an informant addresses associated with each informant.

So for the footnote(s) I just use the following:

<, [CD].>< [REPOSITORY] ([REPOSITORY ADDRESS]).>< [COMMENTS]>

In the citation details I entered:
Interview with Ema Schutt Clark (Route 21, Marion, Wayne County, New York), by Ron Siem, August 1984.

Everything is good so far.

Now the default Bibliography output tab in the source has:

[INFORMANT], interview.< [INTERVIEW DATE],> [INFORMANT ADDRESS]. [REPOSITORY]; [REPOSITORY ADDRESS].

Now when I run the report Individual Narrative -> Individual Narrative preview with sources the Bibliography shows:

unknown informant, interview. unknown informant address. Personal Archives - Ron Siem; 417 North Greece Road, Rochester, Monroe County, New York, USA 14468.

This is to be expected. The repository part is fine. I just can't get the informant name, informant address in the Bibliography - at least I don't know how other than input the data directly into the Source List entry in the Master Source List.

Unless there is something that I am missing it appears that I will need to create an individual source entry for each interview that I had for a particular person. So if I interviewed Sally Smith on two different dates and then also did a different interview with David Jones then I will need to create 3 interview sources in the Master Source List (2 each for Sally using 2 different dates and one for David Jones). Now I can remove the < [INTERVIEW DATE],> field from the Bibliography template which is fine. But I still won't get the "Interview with Sally Smith" on Bibliography.

So if I create multiple sources for each informant then if I do this doesn't this defeat the idea of being a lumper and really is a splitter?

Can you please offer your comments?

Thanks.

Ron Siem

#9 Michael Hannah

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 05:55 PM

The key to remember is that you have to enter all the data about your source citation "somewhere" in the levels high to low of Repository, Source, or Citation. Whatever you put in the highest, you don't have to put in the lower. But what you don't put in a higher level, then you have to put in a lower. Thus, if you "lump" too broadly by putting too little at the source, then you have to duplicate a lot in the CD. But if you "split" too much by putting everything in the source, then you may have only one CD for each source.

In your example, if you do not want to put the Informant, Date and Informant Address in the source, then you should customize that source to not include those elements in any of the templates. But now you will have to put all of that in the CD of each citation to that "lumped" source.

The default source type "Interview" expects to be a single separate source for each single full interview with a given informant on a give day. That will make sense if you get lots of information from John Doe in your interview that day. You might have lots of separate citations to this single inteview, one about Mary, another about Sue, etc. etc.

Michael


#10 Ron Siem

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 06:23 PM

Michael:

Thanks for the reply. I don't have much of a problem editing the sources and/or the CD.

In the interview example I used my problem was figuring out how to get the Bibliography to come out with the following:

Interview with Sally Jones on mm/dd/yyyy date

If I put most of the information in the CD (lumper) and per my original question the CD object is not allowed in the Bilbiography template then how can I get the name of the person interviewed and/or the interview date without entering a separate source for each interview. Again what I am most concerned about is trying to get a basic entry to appear in the Bibliograpy.

My main issue is that I cannot use the CD in Bibliography output template in the source so how to I edit the ibliography output template to get the basic output that I need for the Bibliography (see 2nd paragraph above).

I think what I am want to do is not possible. I was trying to figure out how other lumpers get their Bibliographies to show even basic outputs - nothing fancy without having to create multiple sources for the same source type.

Hope this explains my question a little better.

Thanks.

Ron Siem

Edited by Ron Siem, 29 January 2012 - 06:26 PM.


#11 Terry Reigel

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 09:05 PM

Ron,

As you are finding, you can't put that detail in the CD and have it appear in the bibliography.

Your choices are:

1. Be satisfied with more general descriptions in the bibilography. For example, you could create one Source for interviews with each different person, and put the various dates in the CD but not in the bibliography. Or, you could make one Source for all interviews, and have the bibliography say something along the lines of "Interviews with various people."

2. Give up lumping, at least as far as interviews go, make one source for each interview, or at least for each person (that's what I suggested above - am I getting circular??).

I think most users actually use a mix of "lumped" and "split" sources. For example, I have source for each household in each census. And for each birth/marriage/death certificate. But I make a single source for each county's deed books, not for each deed. And for Ancestry databases, I make one source for each different database (as they title the databases), no matter how many records I see from each one.

In part, it depends on how often I cite a given record, and whether I see it as a separate item or part of whole. I don't think there is a single right answer.
Terry

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The Second Edition of my book, A Primer for The Master Genealogist, is now available
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#12 Michael Hannah

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 09:33 AM

Ron,

As Terry (much more politely) points out, you seem to be completely missing the purpose and definition of a Bibliography, and of a Citation with Citation Details. (Or you hear us, but don't like the answer?) Sorry to be blunt, but since we seem to have been unclear, I will try again.

Citation details are data are specific to that one citation to a source. One citation will have "page 47", a different citation to the same source will have "page 92". A Bibliography is by definition only a list of all your sources, where each source is listed once and only once, regardless of how many times (or from how many different pages) that source has been cited. Also a Bibliography intentionally does not include any of the many citation details from any of the dozens of times this source may have been cited. Thus the Bibliography will not include a list of these many citation details (e.g. page 47, and page 92)

The TMG fields where you can enter source data within TMG and which are used to produce source output are based on these definitions. They are designed to aid you in ensuring you follow these definitions. The TMG source definition fields are reserved for data about a source. The TMG CD field is reserved for only citations details. To enforce the definition of a Bibliography, TMG ensures that nothing entered in a TMG CD field will ever appear in a Bibliography. Only data entered in TMG source definition fields will be output in a Bibliography These enforced definitions should govern how much you "lump", and how you define your source templates in TMG.

Said yet another way, you need to understand the consequences of using a specific TMG field:
  • Any data which you want to appear in a Bibliography must be entered into a TMG source element of a TMG source
  • Each TMG source which is cited will be listed in the Bibliography, but only once regardless of how many times it is cited.
  • Any data which you put in a TMG CD field is specific to this one citation to a TMG source and will not be output in a Bibliography
You said:

I only want to create one Family Interview source and use it for multiple family interviews rather than create multiple sources for each individual interview.

Then you will only get one that one Interview entry in the Bibliography: one Bibliography entry per TMG source.

But you now say you want in the Bibliography:

Interview with Sally Jones on mm/dd/yyyy date

Then you must have a separate TMG source for this interview with Sally: one Bibliography entry per TMG source.

This may not be the answer you seek, but that is what both Terry and I have been trying to tell you from his very first reply.

Hope this does not sound too harsh, but I really am trying to help. Does this help?

Michael


#13 Ron Siem

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:55 PM

Michael and Terry:

Thank you for your help and insight. I understand the concepts much better. I just wanted to understand how TMG works before entering a lot of entries incorrectly.

I see now where I will need to use complete sources and other times where I can input part of the source data and will use a CD in the Citation for the remaining information.

Thanks again for your assistance

Ron Siem

#14 Terry Reigel

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:06 PM

You're welcome, Ron. :)
Terry

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#15 Rkaufman

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 05:15 PM

Michael, new to this site, but you used my great grandparents as a reference; Johanna Roggenbuck and Robert Gille. Do you know of any way I can find out more about them?
Thank!
Rick




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