Sort Bibliography - Punctuation neutral

[genejunky 0]

Hi all. I'm as curious as I am wanting!

Several of my bibliographic entries begin with the web page title, in quotation marks [not the website title, which is in italics]; but all these listing sort FIRST in the bibliography, apparently because of the quotation mark.

 

Shouldn't the bibliography sort punctuation neutral? --GJ

Edited September 3, 2008 by genejunky

[Michael Hannah 0]

Since I noticed today that no other user has ever responded, I thought I would try. I also believe you asked about this sorting on the TMG-L e-mail list back in February 2008 where you mentioned following a GEDCOM file example on page 156 of Mills' Evidence Explained and also got no replies.

 

TMG Help simply says that the Bibliography will be sorted alphabetically and does not address leading punctuation such as quotes. While you may expect it to ignore leading quotes it clearly does not, and makes no claims to do so. Thus whether we may like it or not, it performs as advertised.

 

I am only guessing, but I think the issue may be that having a leading quote in a bibliography entry appears to be a very unexpected and unusual style, and thus not planned for.

 

I did some research in Mills' Evidence Explained [EE] and in the Chicago Manual of Style [CMS]. On page 42 of EE Mills states that: "The Chicago Manual's Humanities Style has been the most effective for history researchers. Evidence Explained is rooted in that style." I was looking for more examples of bibliography entries that began with quotes. I could find no example anywhere in my edition of the CMS of any bibliography entry with leading quotes. The only examples I could find in EE (I may have missed another but don't think so) are her Source List (her more general term for Bibliography) examples of on-line databases and digital collections such as the GEDCOM file example you mentioned. These do begin with the database or collection Title in quotes. However, this seems to be contrary to the CMS guideline 16.139 of: "Titles of collections and descriptive designations such as Diary or Correspondence or Records are usually capitalized in a bibliography listing but not given in quotation marks." In fact, the EE examples that do begin with quotes (such as on page 556 for a Patent Office database, or page 730 for an on-line Georgia state database) appear to contradict some of her own other examples of on-line databases. When there is not a person that is the author or compiler, CMS suggests that either the name of the organization that compiled the collection be used, or the name of the depository housing a collection begin the bibliography entry. Following this name would be the title of the collection. EE also follows this guideline of a name preceding the title in some of her own Source List examples of on-line databases (such as the federal database on page 731). If this CMS name-first guideline were followed, then even EE would not use quotes on the leading element of a bibliography entry.

 

Being only a user like yourself I have no idea if or when the TMG bibliography generator might change to ignore these quotes. Instead I would recommend that you modify your Bibliography templates to avoid having a bibliography entry that begins with quotes. For the EE example on page 156 you could start with the name of the compiler. For the EE example on page 556 or 730 you could start with the governmental entity that collected the records in the database. Making these template changes would seem to let your Bibliography style be consistent with several examples in EE and with all of CMS, while avoiding the sorting issue.

 

Hope this gives you ideas,

[genejunky 0]

Michael:

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my inquiry

I've assumed that more TMG users rely on their source citation output than they do their bibliographic or list output.

 

Your suggestion assumed that I had failed to include the name of the compiler as the leading element in the template for the bibliography--but that is NOT the case that creates this problem. Most of my bibliography templates do lead with the author/compiler/editor element, and in most cases, that name is known, such that the bibliographic entry sorts by the last name, rather than by a leading quotation.

 

When the author/compiler/editor's name is not know, and the related element is blank, then the "title" then leads. If that "title" is the title of a web page or magazine/journal article, for example, then it is in quotes, and leads.

 

I just finished the draft of a single family genealogy that I hope will be published. The accompanying bibliography lists about 65 sources--four of those lead with quotes. Two of those that lead with quotes are web pages or web databases, and two are titled articles that were published in scholarly journals before 1900. In all the cases, the records were compilations and while the "source" of the original records is part of the title or obvious, the compiler/transcriber/editor, etc. of the work product I was using was not credited.

 

I have _not_ found examples where _EE_ is inconsistent, but the examples you provided don't seem really relevant to the problem I'm having. For example, I don't have problems with "Diary or Correspondence..."sources--those are generally descriptive titles, and I don't enter those titles in quotation marks (nor does Mills).

 

Separately, you wrote, "you could start with the governmental entity that collected the records in the database,"--ah ha, but if they are not set out as the compiler of the DATABASE, then they are not the compiler of my source!

 

Rather than split hairs about one source or another, perhaps you can accept that I hope that Wholly Genes will figure out a way to allow the bibliography to sort without the recognition of leading quotation marks. We should be equally able to cite and list sources whether or not the author/compiler/editor's name is known.

 

Thank you again for responding to my inquiry. Hope this helps. --GJ

[Michael Hannah 0]

I've assumed that more TMG users rely on their source citation output than they do their bibliographic or list output.

Perhaps, but what I intended to imply is that it is possible most users' bibliography output have no entries where there is a leading quote so few have encountered the issue.

 

Your suggestion assumed that I had failed to include the name of the compiler as the leading element in the template for the bibliography... When the author/compiler/editor's name is not know, and the related element is blank, then the "title" then leads. If that "title" is the title of a web page or magazine/journal article, for example, then it is in quotes, and leads.

No, I understood that was what generated the problem. I was trying to suggest that a "workaround" whenever you have no compiler name would be to identify an equivalent to the compiler name and use an alternate bibliography entry form that would be legitimate and acceptable and where the leading name is not left blank.

 

Separately, you wrote, "you could start with the governmental entity that collected the records in the database,"--ah ha, but if they are not set out as the compiler of the DATABASE, then they are not the compiler of my source!

Again, as a "workaround" there are examples in EE where she places the name of the governmental entity that collected the records in the database at the beginning of the bibliography entry where you would normally see the database compiler, and instead identifies the database later in the entry somewhat like a publication of those records. I suggest that using this alternate form of a bibliography entry would be an appropriate workaround precisely in the few cases where you do not have a "compiler" name for the database or collection itself. If the database is clearly cited, but this alternate style of the bibliography entry is used to put that information later in the entry, that avoids the leading quotes. I suggest that this alternate style still provides the reader with clear indication of your source. I also suggest that such a "workaround" alternative style for the entry in those few cases where you do not otherwise have a compiler name is a recognized and valid style for a bibliography entry of a database or collection.

 

I hope that Wholly Genes will figure out a way to allow the bibliography to sort without the recognition of leading quotation marks.

I agree, so do I. However, I was simply trying to point out that a bibliography entry with leading quotes is probably very unusual and there is a legitimate "workaround" bibliography style to output that same entry that would avoid the leading quotes.

 

Thank you again for responding to my inquiry. Hope this helps. --GJ

Glad to respond, and hope you recognize that my response is simply one man's opinion, and as a fellow user the best I can hope to suggest are workarounds to any lack of built-in capability.