All Users...or not?

[Peter Goodey 0]

For the best part of two weeks I have been trying to get TMG running on my new PC. I don't care whether it's 6.12 (that I had been using) or 7 (I was seriously thinking about upgrading but now I'm not so sure).

 

I have been corresponding with technical support.

 

The new PC is running Windows XP Pro with service pack 3. Please note it's XP Pro - not XP Home.

 

TMG appears to install but a when attempting to produce a report (any report apart from Visual Chartform reports), various error messages are produced and the system falls over.

 

I just tried reinstalling the trial version 7 (UK Gold) yet again. I restarted in safe mode as "Administrator" (and not as a named user with administrative rights). I reinstalled with the "all users" option.

 

I restarted the PC and logged in in my usual way (as a named user with administrative rights) and once again attempting to produce a report made the system fall over.

 

Then a voice whispered in my ear that I should try "run as". So I right clicked TMG7.exe and selected "run as Adminstrator". Reports now seem to be working!

 

All this was with the sample project only.

 

Although I seem to have made a small step forwards, this obviously isn't a satisfactory situation.

 

Can anyone understand what's going on here? Has anyone got any suggestions for a proper solution?

Edited October 13, 2008 by Peter Goodey

[Jim Byram 0]

Revised...

 

A TMG 7 'All Users' installation should be installed from an Administrator account.

 

You should not run TMG7 as administrator.

 

%%%%%%%%%%

 

A TMG 6.12 'All Users' installation should be installed from an Administrator account.

 

And under WinXP, you do not need to run v6.12 as administrator.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Jim Byram

[Peter Goodey 0]

I wonder if perhaps your advice was intended for a user of Vista? I am using XP Pro.

 

On my PC with XP Pro, TMG 6 and TMG 7 can only be installed by an administrator. The program will only run successfully using "run as".

 

Even if the current named user has full administrative rights, the software will only run if the "run as" option specifies the word "Administrator".

[Jim Byram 0]

v7 is installed and works the same under Win2k, WinXP and WinVista. The only difference is that the data file locations are adjusted depending on the operating system.

 

I have installed v6.12 and v7 many times on many different computers running both WinXP and WinVista with no problems using the recommendations that I made above.

 

You haven't been specific enough for me to have any ideas as to the cause of the issues that you describe.

 

%%%%%%%%%%

 

However, my response above is incomplete.

 

With either v6.12 or v7, if you install an 'All users' installation (the default), it is best done from an Administrator account.

 

v6.12 installed to the Program Files tree doesn't need to be run as Administrator under WinXP simply because WinXP doesn't enforce the integrity of the Program Files tree as WinVista does.

[Virginia Blakelock 0]

Peter, what is the first error message you receive when you try to run a report other than VCF? TMG error messages are dated and time-stamped - and are saved in the error.txt file in the Logs folder. By default that is at

 

Windows XP and Windows 2000:

C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents\The Master Genealogist v7

 

In Preferences > Advanced, is Configuration_files (report definitions) set to the current location (by default same as above)? You are accessing the Sample Project copy in the User Data Files folder (see Help > Data File Storage), not the copy in Program files?

 

Virginia

[Maccara 0]

v6.12 installed to the Program Files tree doesn't need to be run as Administrator under WinXP simply because WinXP doesn't enforce the integrity of the Program Files tree as WinVista does.

 

AND the users running the software needs to have at least "Power User" privileges (normal user accounts don't have write access in XP either)

 

...so, no administrator privileges needed, but normal user accounts wont work either with v6.12.

 

(not sure if home/pro version of XP differ here - these are the defaults for pro today (was not so in first version of XP, not sure if this became the default with SP1 already or SP2))

[Peter Goodey 0]

Jim - You didn't specifically mention XP Pro but I understand that there are significant differences between XP Pro and XP Home - particularly concerning security.

 

 

Virginia -

 

1. successive error messages were:

 

a. Syntax error.

 

b. Object GOREP is not found. 4 FRMRDS_PEOPLE.DESTROY

 

c. Unknown member ROPROTECTIONMAN

 

d. Object GOREP is not found. 14 FRMCHART5.UNLOAD

 

 

2. Configuration Files:

 

C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents\The Master Genealogist v7\Configuration_files\

 

3. Sample project

 

C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents\The Master Genealogist v7\Projects\Sample_UK\

[Virginia Blakelock 0]

Peter -

 

Can you print reports to Screen? If you are printing reports to PDF have you installed the PDF Printer (File > Printer Setup > Install PDF Printer)?.

 

Virginia

[Peter Goodey 0]

Can you print reports to Screen? If you are printing reports to PDF have you installed the PDF Printer (File > Printer Setup > Install PDF Printer)?.

 

It won't produce reports at all.

[Virginia Blakelock 0]

On the report definition screen Properties, if the setting is for a default printer, try selecting a specific printer.

 

I am using WinXP Pro and run 2 installations of TMG - one is for all users, the other for a single user - and neither is being run as Administrator. Must be something else going on.

 

Virginia

[Peter Goodey 0]

Printer settings make no difference.

 

I'm sure you're right that it works well for some people. On the other hand all, you won't hear about the potential customers who have tried, failed and given up!

 

I'm only persevering because of my investment of time and sffort.

 

If anyone can suggest a new mix of uninstall and reinstall options I'll try it....

[Jim Byram 0]

Jim - You didn't specifically mention XP Pro but I understand that there are significant differences between XP Pro and XP Home - particularly concerning security.

Shouldn't make any difference at all. I've run TMG 6 and 7 under WinXP Home, WinXP Pro and WinXP Media Center.

 

The only way that I could envision a difference between Home and Pro might be when you get into complex networking situations because of the differences in how they handle networking.

 

You still didn't provide any specifics. Did you install an 'all users' or single user installation What was the install folder Did you install from an Administrator account How do you run TMG... from what type account type? Have you altered any data storage locations? Any other information specific to what you are trying.

 

From the discussion with Virginia, you appear to have a running installation.

 

You're not running WinXP x64, are you?

[Peter Goodey 0]

TMG 7 UK Gold was installed in safe mode as "administrator" to c:\The Master Genealogist v7.

 

I have been attempting to run TMG from an account "Peter (admin)" which was set up to have administrators rights. When run from this account, TMG produces error messages instead of reports. When run from this account using "Run as Administrator", TMG produces reports correctly. No data storage locations have been changed. All this is using the sample project only.

 

The operating system is Win XP Pro.

[Maccara 0]

TMG 7 UK Gold was installed in safe mode as "administrator" to c:\The Master Genealogist v7.

 

Why in safe mode? (maybe because you can't get "Administrator" login otherwise?)

 

Safe mode affects how windows installer behaves (however, I do not remember if TMG installer uses the MSI engine anyway) so I would suggest a clean slate first:

 

(unless Virginia or Jim disagree, but I think this would help a long way to find out what has gone wrong and where)

 

0. backup any projects (for all users who have any) first and copy the backups to a safe location

1. uninstall in safe mode as administrator

2. delete c:\documents and settings\all users\Application data\the master genealogist 7 directory

3. delete c:\documents and settings\{the login(s) you want to run with}\Application data\the master genealogist 7 directory

4. delete c:\documents and settings\{the login(s) you want to run with}\My Documents\the master genealogist directory (I hope you copied the backups to a safe place first!)

5. reboot

6. login with a user who is a member of "Administrators" group (I guess Peter (admin) in your case)

7. install TMG 7 with all defaults (all users, c:\program files etc)

8. reboot (as the installer probably requests this already - if not, do the reboot anyway)

9. login with a user who is a member of "Administrators" group

10. run TMG once

11. check that c:\documents and settings\all users\Application data\the master genealogist 7 directory is re-created (and has something in it) (i don't think the installer creates these dirs, so that's why run once as admin so these get created)

12. re-login with the user you want use for TMG

13. run TMG and restore any backups you created - by this time you should have also again tmg7 directories in my docs and app data folders

 

Now we should have a normal & clean installation which should work as-is for all users. Now we should be able to analyze further what goes wrong with the reports (if they still don't work, that is).

 

This process helps so that no-one has to go "phishing" for information and what has been done at what point.

[Vera Nagel 0]

TMG 7 UK Gold was installed in safe mode as "administrator" to c:\The Master Genealogist v7.

 

Starting a Microsoft Operating System in Safe Mode will in general only be required for trouble-shooting purposes. So don't do that.

For further reference see http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315222

 

Installing Software while i.e. running a Microsoft OS in Safe Mode is never a good idea. Doing so may cause a variety of additional issues.

Don't do that at all.

 

You won't be able to find anything regarding the TMG software where users are asked to install TMG in safe mode. In short: this software works as designed.

[Peter Goodey 0]

Installing in safe mode was a recommendation of TMG technical support!

 

The first installation on this machine was a 'normal' installation and was unsuccessful. However I suppose it will be interesting to see whether another attempt throws up any differences.

 

I'll do a clean uninstall and a normal reinstall and report back.

[Vera Nagel 0]

I'll do a clean uninstall and a normal reinstall and report back.

 

That would be great, Peter.

Please include every even so minor detail you're doing, changing or the like....

This would be incredibly important in case we may need to investigate again.

[Peter Goodey 0]

An update...

 

I uninstalled TMG, cleared out old folders and cleaned the registry.

 

I then reinstalled TMG 7 (UK Gold) for all users using the "Peter (Admin)" account (administrators group), accepting all the defaults.

 

The situation with reports was exactly the same as before which didn't surprise me. When running from the Peter (Admin) account, it produces error messages and then exits.

 

If I run TMG using "Run as Administrator", reports seem to be produced normally.

 

Although it's precisely the same setup program as before, this time for some bizarre reason, it presented me with the US sample project when previously it was the UK sample! I've searched the hard drive and the UK sample is nowhere to be seen!

 

Should I laugh or should I cry?

 

None of the other software I've installed on this PC has caused me any trouble.

[Vera Nagel 0]

For the records:

 

I am in direct contact with Peter.

Requested a couple of files and additional information which Peter kindly provided.

Now I am in the "testing / identifying circle".

 

I will update this thread as soon as possible. Please stay tuned.

[Jim Byram 0]

Although it's precisely the same setup program as before, this time for some bizarre reason, it presented me with the US sample project when previously it was the UK sample! I've searched the hard drive and the UK sample is nowhere to be seen!

There is an explanation for that. This usually means that your cleanup was incomplete.

 

After uninstalling, for the tests that you are doing, you need to delete the program folder and all three data file folders. You can identify the location of the data file folders by reading the Data File Storage help topic.

[Virginia Blakelock 0]

Peter, If there are any of your security settings which you would like me to check and compare on my XP Pro, let me know. For example,

 

I am the Computer Administrator and there are no other accounts (we differ here). I have 2 installations of TMG (in different folders): one for all users and one for a single user. I open both copies with the default icon settings.

 

In Administrative Tools I have the Administrator account enabled:

 

Control Panel

Administrative Tools

Local Security Policy

Local Policies

Accounts: Administrator account shows as Enabled

 

In Control Panel > User Accounts > what are your settings for 'Change the way users log on or log off'?

 

Virginia

[Peter Goodey 0]

Virginia

 

The administrator account is enabled.

 

"Change the way users log on or off" - "Use the Welcome Screen" and "Use Fast User switching" are both checked.

[Vera Nagel 0]

Thanks for your additional offer to help, Virginia.

 

All of Peter's settings in this area are correct as we had already verified bilaterally previously.

Current status at this front is:

- "Administrator" works totally fine

- a new user being only a member of the group "Users" works fine

 

>> the only user causing trouble is "Peter (Admin)"

We're currently investigating further on this which seems to go deep into Windows.

[Maccara 0]

Thanks for your additional offer to help, Virginia.

 

All of Peter's settings in this area are correct as we had already verified bilaterally previously.

Current status at this front is:

- "Administrator" works totally fine

- a new user being only a member of the group "Users" works fine

 

>> the only user causing trouble is "Peter (Admin)"

We're currently investigating further on this which seems to go deep into Windows.

 

Ah! Very valuable piece of information - I continuously thought that it will fail for all other users but the 'Administrator', including users in the 'Users' group.

 

I have actually run into this issue in the past (with other software) and the reason is that there are some minute differences in security handling between local built-in 'Administrator' login and users who are part of the 'Administrators' group. So, I offer some thoughts (not really helpful, but may give some ideas).

 

You should double check to make sure 'full control' for filesystem in every file is really for AdministratorS and not just Administrator - I've seen such bugs. (especially check this for everything related to TMG)

 

'Administrators' are not really meant to be used for normal operations and should only be restricted to administrative tasks (like system changes, installations etc) - but it is really surprising it causes some issues sometimes running software when the "Real" Administrator account does not. And there are no provisions in XP to actually prevent usage of admin accounts for normal use (unlike Vista).

 

There are also some clear security policy (admin tools -> local secpol) differences between builtin admin & members of admins group - check those too. For some security policies, only the builtin admin is enabled, and for some just the admins group. (just make sure that anything that referes to administrator is changed to administrators - although some you can't change as they do not allow groups; in that case add the login directly)

 

For your information, I was not able to solve the issues between admin - user admin even with the help of Microsoft and the issues go really deep into the OS. Really mystified and no-one seems to know why it happens (and I didn't want to waste too much time on the issue).

 

As a result, I actually use the built-in Administrator login and do not even bother with the self-created admins (you just need to enable the system to allow Administrator login always and not just in safe mode - few different ways to do this). For other people I have the normal 'User' accounts created.

 

I know this doesn't really help, especially if you've used the 'other' admin account for a long time and would be a pita moving everything over to other login - but as a future reference might be helpful for someone on XP.

 

All I can say as a conclusion is, that this is not really a bug of TMG - at least i don't believe so (unless they _set_ file security in installer or software - that's a "no-no" and installer/software engineers who do this should be beaten with an ugly stick for a good measure; there is no reason to do this _ever_ in normal "userland" software and anyone who tells differently don't know what they're doing).

 

I would be very interested to hear if you manage to find the actual cause.

[Peter Goodey 0]

this is not really a bug of TMG

 

A bit early to reach that conclusion, I would have said.