How can I get a comma after the first author in a bibliography citation?

[vanceh 0]

I'm using TMG 7. When I enter two names in the Author (or equivalent source element) field of an individual source, using commas and semicolons for separation as the help file indicates, no comma occurs after the first author's first name in the bibliography citation output of the source. For example, if I enter "Smith, John; Roe, Richard" as the author, the bibliography citation starts with "Smith, John and Richard Roe". I'd like to have a comma between "John" and "and" in the example. (I think this is the usual punctuation in style guides that I've consulted, including Mills and the Chicago Manual.) Similarly, when I enter more than two names, such as "Smith, John; Roe, Richard; James, Jesse", what comes out in the bibliography citation is "Smith, John, Richard Roe and Jesse James" (i.e., no comma before the final "and"). Again, I'd like to have a comma before "and". (In the case of series with three or more items, I know that some folks prefer to have a comma before the final "and" while others prefer to omit it. I'm firmly in the first camp.) Is there a way in TMG to get the comma where I want it?

 

Thanks for any available assistance.

Vance Hamilton

[Jim Byram 0]

Authors should be entered in this format...

 

Lastname1, Firstname1; Lastname2, Firstname2; Lastname3, Firstname3

(In other words, each name with as Lastname, Firstname and each name separated by a ';'.)

 

Smith, John; Jones, Jack; Johnson, Fred

 

The bibliography output will be exactly as Mills specified in Evidence!.

 

Smith, John, Jack Jones and Fred Johnson.

[Michael Hannah 0]

Hi Vance,

 

No, the output you are seeing is exactly how the special Source Element Groups for names are designed to work. You will get

“Given Surname and Given2 Surname2” or “Given Surname, Given2 Surname2 and Given3 Surname3” for full footnotes, “Surname and Surname2” or “Surname, Surname2 and Surname3” for short footnotes 4 , “Surname, Given and Given2 Surname2” or “Surname, Given, Given2 Surname2 and Given3 Surname3” for the bibliography. While you may prefer something else, these are common practice.

 

The only way to obtain different output is to use an element from a Source Element Group that is not one reserved for names (e.g. an element other than Author, Compiler, Editor, Subject, Second Person, or any one of their aliases). All other Source Element Groups will output exactly what you enter so you could produce whatever you want.

 

Hope this gives you ideas,

[Terry Reigel 0]

Or, type it the way you want it in the Template.

[vanceh 0]

Hi, Jim, Michael, and Terry--

 

I really appreciate getting such quick replies from three TMG experts! After reading the replies, I think I may not have expressed my problem clearly. I do indeed enter multiple authors' names in the prescribed format (Lastname1, Firstname1; Lastname2, Firstname2; Lastname3, Firstname3). In the bibliography output after entering them this way, it's quite OK with me that the first author's name is inverted while the additional authors' names are in normal order; I know that's how bibliography entries (as opposed to note entries) are supposed to look and how TMG name elements are supposed to work in sources. My (admittedly pretty picky) issue is just one of punctuation: I want to have a comma come before the "and" that precedes the last author's (normal-order) name in a multi-authored bibliography citation, but TMG doesn't put a comma there.

 

Jim: In Evidence!, Mills is actually inconsistent in this particular matter of punctuation. In two of her sample bibliographic entries that have multiple authors (page 67, first entry, and page 68, first entry) she places a comma before the "and" (e.g., "Szucs, Loretto Dennis, and Sandra Hargreaves Luebking") -- which is the way that I'd prefer it. However, in her own actual bibliography (pages 108–110) she omits the comma before the "and" in all multi-authored works. In Evidence Explained she explicitly recommends (pages 669–670) putting a comma before "and" when there are only two authors, but using semicolons between authors' names (and before the final "and") when there are three or more authors. (I've never seen semicolons used this way in a bibliography, though it does seem logical.)

 

Michael: Although I appreciate the suggestion, I don't think using a source element group not reserved for names would be a practical solution. If I did that, it looks to me that I'd have to use one element for the names in the note format and a different one for the names in the bibliography format.

 

Terry: I guess the bottom line is that TMG's punctuation default for multiple authors in bibliography output can't be modified, and I'll have to go with your idea of just inserting the comma manually in each of my multi-author bibliography citation outputs. Oh well, I did say it was a pretty picky point....

 

Many thanks again to all of you for your your help.

 

Vance

[Terry Reigel 0]

I really appreciate getting such quick replies from three TMG experts!

You're welcome.

After reading the replies, I think I may not have expressed my problem clearly.

No, you stated the issue quite clearly - the issue is that there is no way to address it directly.

Michael: Although I appreciate the suggestion, I don't think using a source element group not reserved for names would be a practical solution. If I did that, it looks to me that I'd have to use one element for the names in the note format and a different one for the names in the bibliography format.

 

Terry: I guess the bottom line is that TMG's punctuation default for multiple authors in bibliography output can't be modified, and I'll have to go with your idea of just inserting the comma manually in each of my multi-author bibliography citation outputs. 

Vance,

 

Actually, the two approaches are equivalent in the required effort - you have to enter the names twice in any case. I think Michael's solution has some advantages over mine. In fact,  it's the one I use to get the given name included in the short footnote when there are lots of people of the same surname, like correspondence from relatives. The advantage of having a second source element is that you are reminded to use it, while you could forget if the plan is to modify the templates. On the other hand to avoid having to enter then name twice when there is only one person, you would have to have a second source type for multiple authors.

 

I guess each method has its advantages.