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GEDCOM export - witnesses etc.


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#1 Helmut Leininger

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:04 PM

Hi,

is there a way to export also the relations such as godparents etc.? TMG seems to ignore the witness information in the exported GEDCOM fiile. I have seen other programs exporting it by ASSO/RELA flags.

Here an example:
Gerhard Leininger was godfather at the baptism of Martina Leininger


0 @I151@ INDI
1 REFN 151
1 NAME Gerhard /Leininger/
2 GIVN Gerhard
2 SURN Leininger
1 SEX M
1 BIRT
2 DATE 17 JUL 1952
2 PLAC Wien

0 @I149@ INDI
1 REFN 149
1 NAME Martina /Leininger/
2 GIVN Martina
2 SURN Leininger
1 SEX F
1 BIRT
2 DATE 27 SEP 1978
2 PLAC Wien
1 CHR
2 DATE 11 AUG 1980
2 PLAC Wien
2 ASSO @I151@
3 RELA godfather



Regards
Helmut

#2 Michael Hannah

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 08:36 AM

Hello Helmut,

This is just another example of the problem with the very outdated GEDCOM standard. The GEDCOM 5.5 standard specifically states that the GEDCOM ASSO structure is only defined/permitted directly as an attribute of the Individual. It is NOT defined/permitted as subordinate to an event tag, such as to the CHR tag in your example. Thus the example you provide is not "standard compliant" GEDCOM.

However, many software packages have chosen to generate GEDCOM output on export that are their own ideas of extensions which are not part of the standard. But other programs are free to ignore such non-compliant structures on import, and usually do. Unfortunately different programs will express the same extended concept (such as witnesses) in a variety of different non-compliant ways, because there is no defined "standard" way to do it. As I understand it, TMG tries to generate only GEDCOM that is compliant with the standard.

I guess TMG 'could" generate lots of non-compliant GEDCOM in an attempt to output the great many concepts (such as witnesses) which TMG can express but are not defined in the GEDCOM standard. It seems it has chosen not to. Instead Bob has focused on GenBridge, which I believe is a much better mechanism for transferring data to a different program.

Hope this helps explain this confusing issue,
Michael
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My website.

#3 Michael Hannah

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:36 AM

Just in case I was unclear. The following is defined/permitted in Gerhard's record to show he is the godfather of Martina. But there is no way to link that relationship to a specific event, such as a Christening. GEDCOM only defines a relationship from person to person.

Update: Unfortunately I have the following backwards. <SIGH> See the comments below. MJH

0 @I151@ INDI
1 REFN 151
1 NAME Gerhard /Leininger/
2 GIVN Gerhard
2 SURN Leininger
1 ASSO @I149@
2 RELA godfather

But an ASSO within Martina's CHR Christening record.is not defined/permitted in the standard.

Further, the above compliant GEDCOM ASSO structure defines a one-way person-to-person relationship. GEDCOM can say that Gerhard is the "godfather" but there is no implication that Martina is the "goddaughter" unless a second ASSO structure is in her record. TMG has no two-person one-way relationships, only two-person two-way relationships, or relationships of people to an event. But the only two-person two-way relationships defined/permitted in GEDCOM are spouses. And GEDCOM has no defined structure to relate multiple people to an event, only the one Principal to their event.

This is probably more than you wanted to know. :D But the bottom line is that the ancient GEDCOM standard is way too limited (and seriously out-of-date) to be able to express many of the concepts now recognized as necessary in modern genealogy software.
Michael
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My website.

#4 Helmut Leininger

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:13 AM

Michael,

Thanks for the explanation. It's a pity, but I can't change it.
Regards
Helmut

#5 Vera Nagel

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 11:47 AM

Just in case I was unclear. The following is defined/permitted in Gerhard's record to show he is the godfather of Martina. But there is no way to link that relationship to a specific event, such as a Christening. GEDCOM only defines a relationship from person to person.


0 @I151@ INDI
1 REFN 151
1 NAME Gerhard /Leininger/
2 GIVN Gerhard
2 SURN Leininger
1 ASSO @I149@
2 RELA godfather

But an ASSO within Martina's CHR Christening record.is not defined/permitted in the standard.


Michael,
while absolutely I agree to everything else you're saying, your example above confuses me a bit, I have to admit.

GEDCOM 5.5 says:

"....Other associations or relationships are represented by the ASSOciation tag. The person's relation or association is the person being pointed to . The association or relationship is stated by the value on the subordinate RELA line.....
....RELATION_IS_DESCRIPTOR: = {Size=1:25}
A word or phrase that states object 1's relation is object 2. For example you would read the following as "Joe Jacob's great grandson is the person pointed to by the @<XREF:INDI>@":

0 INDI
1 NAME Joe /Jacob/
1 ASSO @<XREF:INDI>@
2 RELA great grandson
[NOTE: The ASSOCIATION_STRUCTURE can only link to an INDIVIDUAL_RECORD.]"


If I apply this to your example above, it reads that Martina (=I149) is the godfather of Gerhard. :blink:
Thanks, Vera

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#6 Michael Hannah

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 08:00 AM

You are absolutely right, Vera. I had it backwards. <sigh!>

I should have read farther in Chapter 2 of the Standard, the ASSOCIATION_STRUCTURE even has the example you cite:
For example you would read the following as"Joe Jacob's great grandson is the person pointed to by the @<xref:indi>@"  0 INDI	1 NAME Joe /Jacob/	1 ASSO @XREF:INDI@	  2 RELA great grandson

Oh well, it is still a two-person one-way relationship. So to know that Joe was the great-grandfather there would need to be a separate ASSO structure with that relationship phrase in the great grandson's INDI record.

Well spotted, Vera, thanks.
Michael
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My website.

#7 Vera Nagel

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:36 AM

I have seen other programs exporting it by ASSO/RELA flags.

Here an example:
Gerhard Leininger was godfather at the baptism of Martina Leininger



0 @I151@ INDI
1 REFN 151
1 NAME Gerhard /Leininger/
2 GIVN Gerhard
2 SURN Leininger
1 SEX M
1 BIRT
2 DATE 17 JUL 1952
2 PLAC Wien

0 @I149@ INDI
1 REFN 149
1 NAME Martina /Leininger/
2 GIVN Martina
2 SURN Leininger
1 SEX F
1 BIRT
2 DATE 27 SEP 1978
2 PLAC Wien
1 CHR
2 DATE 11 AUG 1980
2 PLAC Wien
2 ASSO @I151@
3 RELA godfather



Hallo Helmut,

eine Frage rein interessehalber: Aus welchem anderen Genealogie-Programm stammt denn bitte der o.a. GEDCOM Export?
Thanks, Vera

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#8 Helmut Leininger

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:22 AM

Hallo Vera,

Das kommt von Webtrees. Ich experimentiere damit um meine Daten (kostenlos) ins Netz zu bekommen. Die Hauptarbeit ist natürlich weiterhin TMG, der Datentransfer an Webtrees erfolgt via GEDCOM Dateien (obwohl Webtrees auch gedacht ist für Multiuser Datenerfassung und Wartung über Internet siehe http://webtrees.net).
Regards
Helmut

#9 ggilbert1

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 06:02 PM

If anybody is interested I experimented with Webtrees awhile back
Three sites from the same data
Second Site: http://gilbert-genea...oanh/index.html
Reunion 9.0b: http://gilbert-genea...union/index.htm
Webtrees 1.0.2: http://gilbert-genea...hp?ctype=gedcom

A page about the process: http://gilbert-genea.../otherwebs.html
I have not kept the Webtrees site up-to-date; fiddling around creating a GEDCOM that works takes more time than it’s worth.
The only advantage I see in Webtrees and similar products is the ability to collaborate with other researchers; users can be given different levels of access and editing abilities.
A few months ago I experienced some problems with the Webtrees site, which I attributed to a broken permissions file on the server, that does not seem to be the case today, however if something is broken it will not be fixed.

Apologies to German language users in advance :puke: Google Translate
Entschuldigung an deutscher Sprache Benutzer im Voraus

Wenn jemand interessiert ist, experimentierte ich mit eine Weile zurück Webtrees
Drei Standorte aus den gleichen Daten
Second Site: http://gilbert-genea...oanh/index.html
Reunion 9.0b: http://gilbert-genea...union/index.htm
PhpGedView 1.0.2: http://gilbert-genea...hp?ctype=gedcom

Eine Seite über den Prozess: http://gilbert-genea.../otherwebs.html
Ich habe nicht die webtrees Website up-to-date gehalten werden, wodurch eine GEDCOM Umgang mit der Arbeit mehr Zeit braucht, als es wert ist.
Der einzige Vorteil sehe ich in webtrees und ähnlichen Produkten ist die Fähigkeit, mit anderen Forschern zusammenarbeiten, kann der Anwender unterschiedliche Zugangs-und Bearbeitungsmöglichkeiten gegeben werden.
Vor ein paar Monaten habe ich einige Probleme mit dem webtrees Website, die ich erlebt habe wegen einer gebrochenen Dateiberechtigungen auf dem Server hatten, nicht meinst du, scheint der Fall bis heute sein, wenn etwas kaputt ist, wird es nicht repariert werden.
Glenn Gilbert
Gilbert-Genealogy

#10 Helmut Leininger

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:11 AM

Glenn,

Basically, I agree with your comments (I cannot say anything about the problems with your webtrees site). The reasons, why I came around webtrees are:
  • I have used another free program to make HTML from a GEDCOM file. It creates a static website, looks nice (for me), has some statistics, and the access is fast. The main problem is, that with about 25000 people I am running out of webspace - it uses nearly 200 MB, around 4000 files, size increasing relatively fast. Also uploading a new tree to the website takes some time (some hours).
  • I experimented a bit with SecondSite (the free version), but it did not convince me. The big advantage is that it integrates seamlessly with TMG and you can bring everything you have in TMG to the website. In my tries, I did not achieve an output that pleased me. I agree there are many switches and options, so with more work maybe I could have come closer to my imaginations. But I did not feel "at home" with it. And besides that, it generates static output with all its advantages (fast access etc.) and disadvantages (many files, total size etc.)
So I found webtrees. For me, the installation (once I hade found a webspace with PHP and mySQL) was fairly easy (I admit I have some decades of experience with computers and programs). It needed some thinking and experimenting to set the privacy options etc.
Now, for a new (updated) tree I have to upload a GEDCOM file of about 8 MB (instead of 4000 files and 200 MB), and load it in the webtrees database (one mouse-click and a few minutes of time). It took me less than three days to have webtrees up and running with my data.
Webtrees has slightly more than 40 MB of code on the website, the database at the moment (for about 25000 people) is 80 MB, growing slowly.

Sure, I have to manipulate the GEDCOM file produced by TMG a little bit. But I (would) have to do so also for any other product. I am running a little AWK script aginst it, mainly for adapting
- alias names (name variants)
- splitting up EITHER - OR dates
this takes a few seconds

Just to say it again:
I will stay with TMG for "development" as it has quite good features that I have not seen anywhere else, I do not like others fiddling in my data (so "multiuser data input" is nothing I need), data entry via WEB is slow, ... But it would be nice to be able to export/import a little bit more between programs that have adequate features (as in my example).
Regards
Helmut

#11 ggilbert1

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 11:54 AM

Hi Helmut

Would you be willing to share the URL for your Webtrees site with us?
One of my thoughts when experimenting with Webtrees was to create a site where descendants of Matthew Gilbert could collaborate on building his tree but never pursued it. What would be really cool is version of Second Site that works like Webtrees. :whistling:
Glenn Gilbert
Gilbert-Genealogy

#12 Helmut Leininger

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:20 PM

Hi Glenn,

it is http://hlein.bplaced.net/webtrees or http://hlein.bplaced.net and select "Stammbaum Daten".

Note: wetrees is version 1.3.1
Regards
Helmut

#13 ggilbert1

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:31 PM

Thanks, checked it out, performance is very good. One of the things I like about Webtrees is the statistics.
Glenn Gilbert
Gilbert-Genealogy




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