UK vs US version

[KathleenC 0]

I've read the description of the procedure on WG, but would appreciate comments from anyone who has switched to the UK version then back again.

 

My database is so heavily weighted with ancestors from Ireland, England, and Wales, that I think I could benefit from whatever items would remain from the switch. Is this correct?

 

Are there any special words of wisdom?

 

Is there any way to add these elements without doing the switch?

 

Thanks for any comments.

 

Using TMG 6.07

[RobinL 0]

I am not TMG support therefore anything I write here may be incorrect.

 

Have you read the page

http://www.whollygenes.com/tmguk.htm

 

where the differences between versions are described.

 

It also describes how to convert a US version into a UK version, and how to revert a UK version back to the US version.

 

That page does not describe:

(1) What happens to your projects and the reports from those projects already created in one version then opened in the other?

 

(2) Whether it is possible to have most of the UK features/customized styles of the both US and UK version available within the one installation? (So that you can create a TMG project with both US and UK data within it that can use both sets of customizations to advantage.)

 

(3) Whether it is possible exchange projects with users of the other version so that they can get the same report output as you see?

 

I suspect that you are seeking answers to all these questions.

 

In the next day or so, I will try to demonstrate what you can achieve by augmenting a US version to include many of the customizations of the UK version. (As today is the local TMG UG Xmas BBQ and tomorrow is not available to do this in enough detail, it will be Tuesday at the earliest.)

 

Hopefully, TMG support will also respond to these points (1), (2) and (3) so that we can all have a definitive answer.

[KathleenC 0]

I suspect that you are seeking answers to all these questions.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks, Robin. Those are exactly the types of things I am wondering about. And yes, I did read the page you mention.

 

My husband is from England, and so fully half of our tree is 100% in the UK. My own ancestry is Irish/English/Welsh -- so I suspect I could make good use of the customizations, but I'm concerned about how to make the change successfully, if at all.

[Terry Reigel 0]

That page does not describe:

(1) What happens to your projects and the reports from those projects already created in one version then opened in the other?

Actually, it does address that:

 

"As noted above, the setting of new default tag types, name styles, place styles, and source categories does not affect existing data sets in any way. Those new defaults are only applied to data sets that are subsequently created."

 

Basically, what it's saying is that converting to the UK edition does not mess with your exiting data. You have to decide which of the listed features you want included in your data, and use the proceedures described in that page to include them.

 

Beyond that, if you have created custom sentences either for standard or custom tag types, or for local tags, those sentences will be in whichever language you were using at the time. That is, they will be in English(US) if you were using the standard edition. If you then change to another language - as you would by default if you moved to the UK edition, changing to English(UK) - Those custom sentences would not be visible, nor would they be used in newly defined reports set to English(UK).

 

There are tecniques for copying the sentences between languages, and if you have created custom sentences, you would want to manage that if you change languages.

(2) Whether it is possible to have most of the UK features/customized styles of the both US and UK version available within the one installation? (So that you can create a TMG project with both US and UK data within it that can use both sets of customizations to advantage.)

Yes, as described in the page you reference, you can copy the custom tag types, styles, and source types so that both exist in the resulting project. What features would you think could not co-exist?

(3) Whether it is possible exchange projects with users of the other version so that they can get the same report output as you see?

What output would you expect to be different? Tag types, styles, source types, etc. are all project data, so if you exchanged projects that data would be available for output, provided you used the same source definition settings.

 

The only possible complication I can see would be that the user of the US edition would have to have the language modual installed in order to set report to use English(UK), assuming that was the language used to create any customized sentences.

[KathleenC 0]

In case a duplicate turns up, this is my 2nd try at replying -- hit backspace by mistake!

 

"As noted above, the setting of new default tag types, name styles, place styles, and source categories does not affect existing data sets in any way. Those new defaults are only applied to data sets that are subsequently created."

 

In my case, I don't use multiple datasets, so that's easy. Then what does apply to the existing dataset?

 

 

If you then change to another language - as you would by default if you moved to the UK edition, changing to English(UK) - Those custom sentences would not be visible, nor would they be used in newly defined reports set to English(UK).

 

Whoa, I thought I didn't lose anything. My custom sentences don't print?

 

Yes, as described in the page you reference, you can copy the custom tag types, styles, and source types so that both exist in the resulting project.

 

Is this where I get my custom sentences back? Or is that not really a problem if I'm not creating a new dataset?

 

Thanks for your help, Terry.

 

P.S. Have you actually done this, or are you just going by what is posted at WG?

[Terry Reigel 0]

In my case, I don't use multiple datasets, so that's easy. Then what does apply to the existing dataset?

I'm not sure of what you mean here. As the article says, "the setting of new default tag types, name styles, place styles, and source categories does not affect existing data sets in any way." So as far as existing datasets (including projects with only one data set) none of the UK-specific tag types, styles, or source categories will appear upon use of the UK edition. They will only be there if you follow a proceedure like that described in the article to copy them into it.

Whoa, I thought I didn't lose anything. My custom sentences don't print? 

Is this where I get my custom sentences back? Or is that not really a problem if I'm not creating a new dataset?

Your custom sentences, which you created in the standard language, English(US), will remain in your data set. They work fine, as long as you continue to create your reports in that language.

 

But, one of the features of the UK edition is that it switches your system to English(UK). That means: 1) That any new report definitions you create will use by default will use that language, so they will not see your custom local sentences. If you use your existing defined reports, which use English(US), or you purposefully choose that language, they will be seen. Or, you can copy them over into English(UK). 2) By default, all sentences you see will be those for English(UK), so any sentences you created in English(US) will not be visible unless you change them to that language. And, any new custom sentences will by default be entered in English(UK), so will not appear in any reports you create using English(UK). It's entirely possible to end up with your custom sentences mixed between English(US) and English(UK).

 

You can deal with this by either a) changing back to English(US) and continuing to operate in only that language, or 2) copying all the custom sentences to English(UK) and afterwards working in that language.

Thanks for your help, Terry.

P.S. Have you actually done this, or are you just going by what is posted at WG?

You're welcome. No, I have not moved a working Project from the US edition to the UK edition. But I've run quite a number of test projects in English(US), English(UK), and German, and understand quite well the behavior of sentences and other features when you change languages. What I'm telling you is not based on what I read on the WG web page.

 

Nothing is lost, and it's all very predictable. TMG has some powerful features for managing language issues. But you can't switch languages casually. You need to understand the underlying processes and manage them to get the results you want.

 

There's an article on use of languages on my website, but I'm afraid it's now outdated and incomplete. The one I've got under construction will be about 5 or 6 times as large, but it's still only about half done, sorry to say.

[gene-fiend 0]

I've read the description of the procedure on WG, but would appreciate comments from anyone who has switched to the UK version then back again. 

 

My database is so heavily weighted with ancestors from Ireland, England, and Wales, that I think I could benefit from whatever items would remain from the switch. Is this correct? 

 

Are there any special words of wisdom? 

 

Is there any way to add these elements without doing the switch?

 

Thanks for any comments.

 

Using TMG 6.07

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Kathleen,

 

I have the same issue, but even more so-I was born in the UK to a UK mother and a US father, so mine is literally half and half!

 

Have you considered creating a hybrid version? One that contains all the UK Source Templates, Timelines, Place Styles, etc. in addition to the US stuff, rather than doing only the US version or the UK version?

 

Mine has operated as a hybrid since version 5. I have had absolutely no problems with the way things work either.

 

If this might interest you, I can post the ins and outs of how I achieved it.

 

Siobhan

[KathleenC 0]

Kathleen,

 

I have the same issue, but even more so-I was born in the UK to a UK mother and a US father, so mine is literally half and half!

 

Have you considered creating a hybrid version?  One that contains all the UK Source Templates, Timelines, Place Styles, etc. in addition to the US stuff, rather than doing only the US version or the UK version?

 

Mine has operated as a hybrid since version 5.  I have had absolutely no problems with the way things work either.

 

If this might interest you, I can post the ins and outs of how I achieved it.

 

Siobhan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, please, Siobhan (that is such a lovely name)! I do have some UK source templates created by another user and they have helped a lot. I would be very interested in how you have handled this.

 

Kathleen

[KathleenC 0]

You're welcome. No, I have not moved a working Project from the US edition to the UK edition. But I've run quite a number of test projects in English(US), English(UK), and German, and understand quite well the behavior of sentences and other features when you change languages. What I'm telling you is not based on what I read on the WG web page.

 

Nothing is lost, and it's all very predictable. TMG has some powerful features for managing language issues. But you can't switch languages casually. You need to understand the underlying processes and manage them to get the results you want.

 

There's an article on use of languages on my website, but I'm afraid it's now outdated and incomplete. The one I've got under construction will be about 5 or 6 times as large, but it's still only about half done, sorry to say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah, one of the few articles on your site I have not read, not realizing it would ever apply to my research. Other than a few Welsh headstones (should I be so fortunate), I thought language was not an issue -- I did not realize the extended meaning of 'language' within TMG.

 

I have food for thought now, and can at least make a better informed decision. Thanks again.

 

Kathleen

[RobinL 0]

As explained in the Wholly Genes TMG UK page that I referred to earlier, there are differences in the two versions (US and UK). These differences are *all* associated with configuration settings and configuration data files that are made active to the user.

 

As Siobhan states, it is possible to create a hybrid version that is essentially the US version with some UK data files added. Using such version will give the best of both worlds but will not give all (but most) the features and settings of the UK version.

 

WARNING What follows should not be considered if you are not computer literate and reasonably familiar with the Advanced features of TMG.

 

I started with 2 computers one with the UK version installed the other with the US version installed. I created a single person project in the UK version, backed it up on that UK version machine and restored it on the US version machine. (This method would show if any files were missing between installations.) I then examined the UK project in the US version.

 

Start out with a TMG6 US version (**with Language Module**) installed. Then File > Restore a backup from the UK version, like this 63Kb file

 

 

 

Please also read the DISCLAIMER and METHOD OF USE sections before attempting this procedure

 

SUMMARY

 

The following is a summary of what I found (in the same sequence as the list on the Wholly Genes TMG UK version description page):

 

[*] Splash screen still says US version.

 

[*] To run the TMG screen Interface in the UK English then you must File > Language > English (UK) to change this.

 

[*] The 5 new UK-oriented timelines are not available in the US version - (There is a fix for this - by copying the appropriate 15 files from a UK version install to a US version install, then restarting TMG.)

 

[*] The internal spell checker is not augmented with 200+ UK spellings (not a serious loss as you can use the MS Word one that has this option).

 

[*] You have set some Preferences according to your needs, like

- File > Preferences > Current Project Options > Advanced > Places: Default country to United Kingdom for automatic use of Chapman codes, etc

- File > Preferences > Program Options > Prompts; Validate LAT/LONG so that can use this field for OSGrid references.

- File > Preferences > Current Project Options >Advanced > Other; Currency character needs to be set if you want the GBP symbol.

 

[*] The UK Sample project can be opened on and backed up from a UK install. That backup can be restored on the hydrid version and hence available.

 

[*] It is possible to substitute the quick tips and electronic Users Guide from the UK version but it doesn't necessary to do this when you will be already be working in mixed environment (you can only have one set of quick tip files anyway.)

 

[*] This hydrid version has the advantage of *not* disabling the File > Preferences > Program Options > Custom Styles settings - BUT this gives the user more control and also the responsibility to set them appropriately for the creation of new Projects.

 

[*] The 82 Custom UK Source Categories are now available

 

[*] The "UK Standard Name" and "UK Standard Place" styles are available for selection.

 

[*] Some additional UK Custom tag types are added for selection.

 

METHOD OF USE

Once you have backed up this "UK_Dummy" project, you can use it as the basis of creating future projects that can have both US and UK characteristics (source, name and place styles, etc).

 

Copy the UK-Dummy to a new project name, then File > Merge Projects into this project as a second data set from an another TMG project or from another File > Import path, then delete the first data set (original data set). The UK customization (extra tag type, source categories, etc) will be available for later additions to that project.

 

OUTSTANDING ISSUES

The running of reports in either language needs to checked carefully for use of the correct spelling. If you then create custom tags or modify sentences then you need to make adjustments in both the English UK and English US forms of these sentences. You ought to save separate appropriately named Report Configurations if you regularly want similar output in each language.

 

DISCLAIMER

This information is provided at the user's risk. It is believed to be correct. No responsibility is accepted for any outcomes in the use of this description.

[gene-fiend 0]

Thanks for the compliment on my name-most people outside of Ireland don't have a clue as to what it is, let alone how to pronounce it.

 

I see that Robin had a chance to respond before I did (darn that 5 year old daughter-doesn't she know it is TMG time??) For the most part, that is how I created mine. I imported in a one person project from the UK version, and then made the necessary other changes.

 

As also stated, there are some manual changes that you have to make in the preferences in order to utilize Chapman codes and OSGrid Coordinates (Ordnance Survey Grid Coordinates), etc. Of course, if you don't use them anyway, it won't make much difference to you.

 

To date I have not had any problems running TMG in this manner, and as I said earlier, I have been doing so since version 5. True, it doesn't give all the UK features, but if there is one that I REALLY want to utilize (which hasn't happened to date), I can always download the UK sample and run my report (or whatever it is) through there.

[RobinL 0]

Thanks Siobhan for confirming that our methods are largely identical.

 

There is one "got you" that users of the UK version can't currently avoid (working on this one ). Because the UK Standard Place style is a Custom Style, then if you merge data sets that have very similar origins, you can end up with a duplication of Place Styles like "UK Standard Place" and "UK Standard Place 1" that may refer to the same set of place values (e.g the same place entered in both starting points). This has an added complication in cleaning up the Master Place List and in triggering the warnings about 2 equal places having different Place Styles.

 

BTW: This is a problem of both UK and US versions because of the way the File > Data Set Manager > Merge Data Sets feature operates with custom styles.

 

It just happens that in the UK version you are forced to use Custom Place Styles from the outset. Most US users use the US Standard Place Style and this does not have this problem. Say a US version user who created their own Custom Place Style then used it in two projects. When, at a later time, a data set from each Project was merged into a single project and then finally merged into single data, set this Custom Style problem would also occur.

 

This extra factor could be avoided by an adjustment to the handling of equivalent custom styles when merging data sets. I am hoping that the developers will see merit in making it easier for UK users and other users of custom styles.

[Terry Reigel 0]

The running of reports in either language needs to checked carefully for use of the correct spelling. If you then create custom tags or modify sentences then you need to make adjustments in both the English UK and English US forms of these sentences. You ought to save separate appropriately named Report Configurations if you regularly want similar output in each language.

Robin, have you verified that your methodology loads the correct sentences into both English(US) and English(UK)? I've not got the UK edition installed to test that.

 

In any case, I think trying to run narrative reports in both languages is begging for trouble. One would have to be very diligent to keep all custom sentences current in both languages. I'd think it much better to make sure all sentences are loaded into the language you intend to operate in (the one set in File > Languages) and then always run reports in that language.

[RobinL 0]

Terry,

 

Your point about sentences being setup correctly is a good one. I did check some of the tags and it now proves that I did not look long and hard enough.

 

Looking at the Census 1841 tag is a good example.

 

It has roles Principal, Witness, Head of Household, Member of Household and Neighbor. In the hybrid version as I set it up, English UK sentences are there as you would expect. BUT ... the English US sentences use the default construction for the Principal and Witness (not very pretty), while the 3 specific roles have blank English US sentences.

 

It would not take long to edit these UK tags to have correct English US sentences for all their roles. A user could easily do that in [Edit] of that tag from the Master Tag Type List for each tag in turn. Once this has been done for the new tags, the backup of the revised project for repeated use as a template.

 

However, I do not agree with you about trying to output a narrative in both languages. I would expect the user of the hybrid version would want to do _exactly_ that - produce an output for US consumption and another for UK, Australian, NZ, etc consumption.

 

It will take some user discipline to remember to create sentences for *all* roles in both UK and US English when ever a custom tag is created or whenever the local sentence for a tag is modified (Must do all relevant languages not just the current report language). But it is "do-able" within the features available to the user.

 

I am sure that this topic will evolve further. It would be very nice if Wholly Genes recognised that there was a need for an "International English" version that gave the user easy access to the combined resources for multi-country input and reporting. Such a version could make this discussion obsolete.

[gene-fiend 0]

It would not take long to edit these UK tags to have correct English US sentences for all their roles. A user could easily do that in [Edit] of that tag from the Master Tag Type List for each tag in turn. Once this has been done for the new tags, the backup of the revised project for repeated use as a template.

 

However, I do not agree with you about trying to output a narrative in both languages. I would expect the user of the hybrid version would want to do _exactly_ that - produce an output for US consumption and another for UK, Australian, NZ, etc consumption.

 

It will take some user discipline to remember to create sentences for *all* roles in both UK and US English when ever a custom tag is created or whenever the local sentence for a tag is modified (Must do all relevant languages not just the current report language). But it is "do-able" within the features available to the user.

 

I am sure that this topic will evolve further. It would be very nice if Wholly Genes recognised that there was a need for an "International English" version that gave the user easy access to the combined resources for multi-country input and reporting. Such a version could make this discussion obsolete.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Robin & Terry,

 

I do something a little more cumbersome, but I can't mistake the language that I am dealing with by doing so-I actually have the main tags that are used all the time (birth, death, census, etc.) set up twice. Yes, I know that I could just use one tag and edit both languages, but the chance that I will utilize the wrong language is too great (sigh). So, on one tag, the tag label reads BIRTH, the other one reads BIRTH UK, and so on. In addition, I have gone into each tag and changed the language on each of the UK tags to be English (U.K.), rather than English (U.S.).

 

In addition, all the UK tags are also set to a default style of the UK Standard Place. Again, this is done so that there is absolutely no possibility of the wrong language being used at any time. And, finally I also have a UK layout that is set up with a custom toolbar of all my most utilized UK tags (parish registers, BMD, census, etc.) that I flip to when working on mom's side.

 

As for narrative output, I have to agree with Robin. If I am outputting a narrative to send to my brother in England, or any of my cousins in Australia or the rest of the UK, for example, I do not want it to even remotely look like it would for US consumption. There are different spellings and usage of language to consider.

 

And, Robin, I can only think of one response to your comment about the need for an "International English" version, and that is- Amen!!!

[Terry Reigel 0]

It would be very nice if Wholly Genes recognised that there was a need for an "International English" version that gave the user easy access to the combined resources for multi-country input and reporting. Such a version could make this discussion obsolete.

Robin,

 

How would you see an "International English" version working? How would it deal with all the issues raised here?

[GenerationGoneBy 0]

Ah, one of the few articles on your site I have not read, not realizing it would ever apply to my research. Other than a few Welsh headstones (should I be so fortunate), I thought language was not an issue -- I did not realize the extended meaning of 'language' within TMG.

 

I have food for thought now, and can at least make a better informed decision. Thanks again.

 

Kathleen

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kathleen,

A few years ago, I wanted my data to print in sort of a tabular output. Using the language feature, I was able to create sentences that would print so that they were in semi-columns. The language feature is one of the easist and lest used features of TMG. I think if more users played with it, they would see that it was not hard to do.

I use English2 for my sentences, and they are written to explain each tag (like census) so that my non genealogy readers can not only read about their ancestors, but learn about the events and how they effected those ancestors. Some day I plan to write one that is more of a narrative format for easy reading without all the descriptive prose.

[RobinL 0]

Robin,

 

How would you see an "International English" version working? How would it deal with all the issues raised here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Terry,

 

At the first level, I don't think that it would require much additional work, but an ideal outcome would require some further adjustments (which would also solve some other International users problems where they see some untranslated English )

 

I see 5 areas that need to be discussed.

1) Installed Definitions

2) User Interface (the on-screen view)

3) Data Entry and Editing (user-defined templates/styles)

4) Reporting

5) Configuration, Preferences and Prompts

 

1) Installed Definitions

This is largely what has been done by amalgamating the US and UK set of styles, source categories, etc. So this needs to be an available base.

 

2) User Interface (the on-screen view)

This is largely already working as desired for an International version. The only area that has some problems is in the use of Styles - see the next section.

 

3) Data Entry and Editing (user-defined templates/styles)

It is in the use/definition of place and name styles, and of the construction of custom tags where the user could use some on-screen guidance and warnings. So here are some thoughts:

 

- Place style output templates can have embedded text (prepositions, etc) which will need to change from language idiom to idiom - the preposition problem keeps turning up even in the US discussion on TMG-L and here. Therefore, like the Sentence aspect of the Master Tag Type list, a user should have the ability to set the output templates for each language in the Place Style Definition.

 

- Place style entry validation You might like the validate LAT/LONG to be turned off only for the UK Place styles, but left active for US Place styles. The "Validate LAT/LONG" should apply on a place style basis and not a global setting in Preferences. Other validations, like a possible Postal Zip validation, could be similarly apply on a style by style basis.

 

- Place style field labels (both custom and in-built) - there is no translation feature for the field labels (an issue that I know has come up in using "US Standard Place" style in the Dutch and German language interfaces of TMG). It also comes up because some words are spelt differently in US and UK English (e.g. Neighborhood and Neighbourhood). To overcome this, the Place Style definition screen needs to incorporate a Language setting capability for the field labels. (TMG would provide these translations for its native Place Styles.)

 

- Similar changes need to be made to the Name Styles definition area.

 

- There may be equivalent problems that I have not addressed here.

 

4) Reporting

This largely working as desired for an International version.

 

5) Configuration, Preferences and Prompts

There are minor adjustments in the way Preferences can be set (e.g. the moving of the validate LAT/LONG to the Place style definition).

 

The most important change would be in the way the user wants to be prompted.

 

In Preferences > Current Project Options, the user could nominate which languages they wish to keep up to date as they modify sentences, styles, etc in this Project.

 

Then for TMG to issue an optional prompt (on [OK] but not [Cancel]) of say

- the Tag Definition Screen

- the Custom Place Style definition screen

- the local Tag Sentence definition screen

 

"You have not modified the content for the other languages:

English UK, English2

[Continue] [Re-Edit]"

 

[Continue] would accept the current action, while [Re-Edit] would return the focus to the previous screen.

 

You would not see this prompt very often anyway - these are not common actions. BUT it would be important to remind the user about this data consistency. Of course, if the user only nominated one language they would never see the prompt.

 

There may need to be a Preference setting "show UK tags" like the "show LDS tags" to make it easy to get back to a "pure" US Version state.

 

All of these enhancements/adjustments would have no impact on the US user, but would make it considerably easier for users to exchange projects, and to update data for multi-lingual projects.

 

With these changes, all users would have the choice of how they want to operate on a particular project, and Wholly Genes would no longer need to brand versions (except for bundling and marketing purposes).

[KathleenC 0]

METHOD OF USE

Copy the UK-Dummy to a new project name, then File > Merge Projects into this project as a second data set from an another TMG project or from another File > Import path, then delete the first data set (original data set). The UK customization (extra tag type, source categories, etc) will be available for later additions to that project.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Robin,

 

I finally got around to trying this out and I'm a bit lost.

 

* Merge my Existing project into the UK-Dummy (or a copy of it with a new name), right?

* Is it B to A or A to B?

* Delete the UK-Dummy.

 

When tried this, I lost my bookmarks & filters and the UK source types seemed to have disappeared, so I decided I must have done something wrong. I'm ready to try again, so can you clarify these points for me?

 

Thanks,

Kathleen

[GenieAulogy 0]

I am not TMG support therefore anything I write here may be incorrect.

 

Have you read the page

http://www.whollygenes.com/tmguk.htm

 

where the differences between versions are described.

 

It also describes how to convert a US version into a UK version, and how to revert a UK version back to the US version.

 

I know I saw this in the old site, but the bit where it describes how to convert & revert seems to have been moved... has anyone found this since the WG site change? I've got v6.09.000 US for my side of the family, but I would like to make the "hybrid" version as mentioned in this thread, as my better half is English.

 

Do I need to also purchase the UK version in order to get the UK timelines, name & place styles, and custom source & tag types? I've already got a lot of England & Wales census data, along with some birth, marriage, & death certificates to enter, but I've been putting it off because of the differing formats of place names, etc. We're heading out soon on a genealogy trip to Cornwall, and I'd like to have most of this entered into my tablet PC so I can share it with relatives there, plus I hope to find even more BMD info during the trip.

 

Many thanks in advance for any advice