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Helge Haugland

Alternatives to SecondSite for web presentation of TMG data?

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Are there any alternatives to SecondSite for presentation of TMG data on the web?

 

I want a database-driven tool, but one which knows and uses the extra features in TMG, such as witnesses. Popular presentation tools like phpGedView and TNG use GEDCOM as input.

 

I'm thinking of coding something myself, but I find it hard to believe I'm the first to want to present all my genealogical data in the most accurate way.

 

--

Helge

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I'm sure SS will output almost anything I put into TMG, reading the database files directly..

 

I don't like the long pages SS create. I am looking for something with a database backend as I think the possibilities with a database are greater, e.g. creating charts.

With SS my visitors are depending on the uploaded .htm-files. With 20.000+ individuals there are many .htm-files...

 

--

Helge

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I want a database-driven tool, but one which knows and uses the extra features in TMG, such as witnesses. Popular presentation tools like phpGedView and TNG use GEDCOM as input.

There are very few genealogy programs that allow the use of Witnesses as TMG does, so I'd not expect to find web tools other than Second Site that can accomodate them. If there were, they would have to read TMG's files directly, as there is no way to output in a format that includes witnesses. I don't know of a web generation program other than Second Site that can read TMG files.

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Are there any alternatives to SecondSite for presentation of TMG data on the web? 

 

I want a database-driven tool, but one which knows and uses the extra features in TMG, such as witnesses. Popular presentation tools like phpGedView and TNG use GEDCOM as input.

 

I'm thinking of coding something myself, but I find it hard to believe I'm the first to want to present all my genealogical data in the most accurate way.

 

--

Helge

 

Helge,

My solution to this may not fit your needs but here it is: I use TMG6 for exactly the reason you note - accuracy (and completeness), but for my Web site I use phpGedView in a Joomla environment. This gives me, and my users/visitors the power and convenience of a DB driven tool in their browser, while I can maintain a more complete DB locally. If anyone requests additional info on sources etc., I can readily supply it (if I have it...). PhpGedView makes uploading gedcoms and media trivial, and the Joomla environment means I can easily add a lot more that is hopefully of interest to site visitors (newsfeeds, links, library, etc.). After using a dynamic Web tool I would never go back to static pages (like those generated by Second Site). BTW, if you do "roll your own" let us know!

Martin

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I use phpGedView and I like it alot. It may not provide all the functionality that you seek but that may be a good thing. I don't know what information you have recorded in your family tree, but in my case publishing ALL information may cause both legal and moral issues as I have everything from deeds, social security numbers, criminal records, address information, copies of ID's, just to mention a few and publishing these on the web may in many cases be illegal. Then I have a lot of private notes. For example in one case I had papers proving a child was adopted, this child is now 19 and did not himself KNOW he was adopted. Had I published this information online, I'd be in trouble! :)

 

In any event I think Martin makes a valid point in that publishing some information online, while making the statement that more information is available to select family members upon request, makes sense.

 

Again, I don't know what information you have in your family tree, so privacy may not be a problem at all. I am just the cautious kind! ;)

 

 

Ken.

Helge,

My solution to this may not fit your needs but here it is: I use TMG6 for exactly the reason you note - accuracy (and completeness), but for my Web site I use phpGedView in  a Joomla environment. This gives me, and my users/visitors the power and convenience of a DB driven tool in their browser, while I can maintain a more complete DB locally. If anyone requests additional info on sources etc., I can readily supply it (if I have it...). PhpGedView makes uploading gedcoms and media  trivial, and the Joomla environment means I can easily add a lot more that is hopefully of interest to site visitors (newsfeeds, links, library, etc.). After using a dynamic Web tool I would never go back to static pages (like those generated by Second Site). BTW, if you do "roll your own" let us know!

Martin

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Are there any alternatives to SecondSite for presentation of TMG data on the web? 

 

I want a database-driven tool, but one which knows and uses the extra features in TMG, such as witnesses. Popular presentation tools like phpGedView and TNG use GEDCOM as input.

 

I'm thinking of coding something myself, but I find it hard to believe I'm the first to want to present all my genealogical data in the most accurate way.

 

--

Helge

 

In direct answer to your question, TMG itself will produce web pages from most of it's reports.

 

However, Second Site will output witness sentences. I have several examples on my site. If you are suggesting that the witness people don't have entries themselves, that's a different story- just be sure you haven't excluded them from your "people" choices.

 

Dick

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I'm sure SS will output almost anything I put into TMG, reading the database files directly..

 

I don't like the long pages SS create. [snip]

 

--

Helge

 

You can reduce the number of people presented on a page. See Pages - page sizes. You can go to as few as one.

 

Dick

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Are there any alternatives to SecondSite for presentation of TMG data on the web? 

 

I want a database-driven tool, but one which knows and uses the extra features in TMG, such as witnesses. Popular presentation tools like phpGedView and TNG use GEDCOM as input.

 

I'm thinking of coding something myself, but I find it hard to believe I'm the first to want to present all my genealogical data in the most accurate way.

 

--

Helge

 

 

I don't understand half of your requirements, but

for a compact screen format and user friendly website: See the roglo (INRIA) website at:

 

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en

 

The database and features are driven online, including data updating, reports, etc.. Play with roglo's 1.4 million person database for a time, to get a feel for how you like it and reports.

 

Best of all it's free to use, acquire and evaluate whether or not it has all the features you want. Click on the GenWeb link at the lower left of the opening page to download the software.

 

The downside is that you will have to initialize the database via GEDCOM. The good news, you can run the software off-line to see if the GEDCOM exchange did a good enough job of translating your data.

 

Most people on GeneaNet use this software.

 

Good luck,

Mike Talbot

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Here is another one you may wish to evaluate.

 

http://lythgoes.net/genealogy/software.php

 

Reg

 

Yes. You can see a fine genealogy website using that software at:

 

http://www.genealogics.org/index.php

 

Leo van de Pas' database of 400,000+ movie stars to kings and emperors to ordinary folks.

A W.Ausrailian database of 200,000+ settlers to modern compile by another.

 

The two databases are handled like a TMG project with 2 data sets.

 

In addition to evaluating this sofyware, you might find some useful genealogy data.

 

Best wishes,

Mike Talbot

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SS still produces static pages. I was looking for something dynamic.

 

I don't understand your distinction between the two If you mean that, having set five person per page, you expect five persons on every page, I believe SS has that capability. See the checkmark box on Pages - page sizes. Leave it unchecked to get what you want.

 

If that's not what you mean, please explain your distinction between static and dynamic.

 

But given the way people are inclined to browse through a site, using the links to hop to parents, children, charts and sources, most of us feel that "compressing" the presentation has no advantages. In fact it has a disadvantage: I can give you the link to a person on my site, and as long as I keep the number of persons per page constant and don't renumber the person IDs, then that link will always work - even if I add or subtract people in between (through filtering, perhaps).

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Does anyone who uses a system with dymanic pages know if the pages can be searched by Google and the like? I've been thinking not, but don't know.

 

If the purpose of posting it to attract contacts with others, as it is for me, I've found that searches from Google et al is a primary means of making those contacts. Thus "searchability" is a vital requirement.

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Does anyone who uses a system with dymanic pages know if the pages can be searched by Google and the like? I've been thinking not, but don't know.

 

If the purpose of posting it to attract contacts with others, as it is for me, I've found that searches from Google et al is a primary means of making those contacts. Thus "searchability" is a vital requirement.

 

Terry,

The short answer is yes, these dynamic sites, at least the php-MySQL based type, can be searched by search engines. Optimizing the site for search engine bots can take a little work, but that is true for most sites, really. And you're right, if that functionality were not present, it would hardly be worth using this approach.

 

BTW, I took a look at the program "Regau" noted (TNGv.5) - very similar to PhpGedView in its capabilities, very nice implementation of the idea. Also compatible with content management systems. And I was interested to note that the author also suggests using a desktop (i.e., local, for most users) program as the main repository, pretty much for the same reasons I alluded to.

 

For those unsure about the difference between static and dynamic pages, looking at some of the sample sites on the TNG site, or at www.phpgedview.net, might help them to understand the difference.

Martin

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If that's not what you mean, please explain your distinction between static and dynamic.

By dynamic sites I mean sites that are generated from a database on-the-fly.

Example: I want to show the common ancestor between x and y. The chart could be something like this:

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;m=RL...8;l2=4;i2=23485 (from Geneweb).

If I must generate static pages like this for 20000 persons X and Y I can't imagine how long that would take to do and to upload to my ISP server. A dynamic site does this by generating the requested output from a database.

 

Helge

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Does anyone who uses a system with dymanic pages know if the pages can be searched by Google and the like? I've been thinking not, but don't know.

 

If the purpose of posting it to attract contacts with others, as it is for me, I've found that searches from Google et al is a primary means of making those contacts. Thus "searchability" is a vital requirement.

 

Sorry. The two that I know about are not Google searchable. You would have to put keywords or names on your webpage. They are mentioned in this thread and are:

 

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en

and

genealogics

 

Best wishes,

Mike talbot

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Terry,

[snip]

 

For those unsure about the difference between static and dynamic pages, looking at some of the sample sites on the TNG site, or at www.phpgedview.net, might help them to understand the difference.

Martin

 

It wasn't obvious. Is this the clue? "...genealogy program which allows you to view and edit your genealogy on your website. "

 

Dick

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It wasn't obvious.  Is this the clue? "...genealogy program which allows you to view and edit your genealogy on your website. "

 

Dick

 

Static means that all charts and reports that a browser can see, must have been generated and placed on a webpage by the site owner before the browser's visit.

 

Dynamic means that the browser can generate any chart or report that is supported by the site's software during his visit. The site owner does not have to be clarvoyant as to what browsers would like to see. Reports and charts need not exist prior to the browser entering the site nor must they exist when he exits.

 

Off line analogy: Dynamic is like TMG. Static is like a bunch of paper charts tacked to a wall.

 

Best wishes,

Mike Talbot

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It wasn't obvious.  Is this the clue? "...genealogy program which allows you to view and edit your genealogy on your website. "

 

Dick

 

Dick, to be honest, I think I was subconciously hoping you wouldn't ask the question. It is a very simple concept, but it is not so easy to explain in a way that immediately makes the differences between static and dynamic Web sites obvious. Depending on content, they can look and act very much the same. But I googled "static vs. dynamic Web sites" and found I am not the only one who has trouble explaining it, so I don't feel too bad.

 

So I'll try an example. Say I have a modestly sized genealogical database on TMG (which happens to be the case). I can use a program like Second Site (which I did purchase) to create a Web site from this database which I can then publish on the Web. Subsequently I get new information which updates several families and exhibits. I enter the data in TMG, then use SS to create new Web pages, which I then upload. A user then can see the updated data on the newly updated pages. That's the "static" scenario.

 

Or in the "dynamic" scenario, I upload the new data directly, using my browser, into a database already in place on the Web server, and when the user requests information, the new data is automatically included in the page the user sees, because the page is created when the user requests it. The advantages are pretty clear- I have fewer steps to go through, and I don't have to track which pages need to be updated or uploaded. With a large site that can be quite onerous. And although I don't use this functionality for genealogy data, just for exhibits and links, it also means database development can be collaborative and on-line.

 

In my case (and as recommended by the TNG author), I do use a separate database "at home" - TMG6 - for reasons given in my earlier post. But I still don't have to create updated pages and upload them- all I have to do is export a GEDCOM and upload it and new media, which is a lot quicker, and easier to track for maintenance purposes. I realize GEDCOM output is limited, and others may prefer to include more information in their online genealogical presentations, so this solution won't work for everyone, but to me the flexibility far outweighs this disadvantage.

 

Hmm, clear as mud, I'm afraid, and long-winded to boot. Hope it helps some, though. I would be glad to give a few more examples via email if you would like, but you have probably had more than enough of this already...

 

Martin

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I think there are advantages to dynamic sites, but it's not as simple as Martin suggests. To over-simplify the debate and declare dynamic sites as the clear winner ignores the disadvantages and does a disservice to everyone reading this thread.

 

The essential difference between static sites and dynamic sites is that dynamic sites use some form of scripting to create the page "on demand", i.e., when a visitor to the site requests some specific piece of information. Dyanmic sites typically use a MySQL database, and they read the database to create the pages. That usually means there is less disk space required on the web host and it also means that pages can be customized to the current context. So, for example, it's possible to provide information that is specific to the person browsing the site, like the pedigree chart of any person in the database that the visitor finds interesting.

 

In contrast, all the pages for a static site are pre-generated and no customized responses are generated based on the interests of a site visitor. If the user wants a pedigree chart for a particular person, the site compiler has to anticipate that requirement and arrange for the chart to be built in advance.

 

Concurrent updating by multiple researchers is not a required feature of dynamic sites, and many dynamic site programs do not include that feature. Some do. It's peripheral to this discussion unless the user requires an online, collaborative genealogy research tool... and can live with limitations associated with that. For example, those tools require web access to use.

 

The biggest disadvantages associated with dynamic sites are the technical expertise necessary to install and configure the software, and the increased CPU required to serve pages. If a site generates relatively light traffic, the increased CPU usage usually isn't a problem. A busy site that uses scripts might incur the wrath of the web host. It is also the case that some web servers serve scripted pages more slowly than static pages. Those problems can be avoided by choosing an appropriate web host and web hosting package.

 

In the specific case of TMG, another significant disadvantage of dynamic sites is that the available dynamic site tools use GEDCOM.

 

As others have pointed out, researchers need to be careful about configuring the scripting software to avoid problems with search engines.

 

Lastly, unless the researcher maintains the web-resident database as their primary genealogy database, updating the site means uploading a GEDCOM file to the web host, and that GEDCOM will usually include all the records for the site, not just changes. Typically, a script then imports the data into a MySQL database. Uploading changed records only is not a feature that I have seen in any of the dynamic site products. Perhaps I am out of date on that.

 

Despite being the author of a static site product, I think there are many good characteristics of dynamic sites, and I plan to offer a dynamic site product for TMG that does not rely on GEDCOM and solves some other issues I see with the existing products. I don't agree that a dynamic site is a good choice for all users, especially TMG users who often want features that are not part of the GEDCOM standard.

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Well, I knew someone would do a better job of explaining the differences, and it is no surprise that it is John Cardinal. I agree with almost everything you said, John, including your comment that it would be a disservice to declare dynamic sites a "clear winner" - I tried not to do that, or to oversimplify the differences, just to indicate what my personal preferences are, and not claim that dynamic sites are "a good choice for 'all' users". This preference is based on what I want the site to do, and that will of course differ among Web site owners. But I did try to simplify things a bit, because it is pretty complicated and this forum isn't the place to get into all the issues - users will have their work cut out for them if they want to dig into this topic.

 

One comment of John's I would like to expand on is that dynamic sites require greater expertise - they do. Not because of the program itself, it is the server side requirements that can get complicated. And security is a big issue, which with the present state of the art requires a lot of work on the site owner's part.

 

Lastly, John, I think it is terrific you plan to develop a dynamic site program. I am sure it will be a superior product, and I will be very interested in evaluating it for my own site.

 

Martin

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I don't agree that a dynamic site is a good choice for all users, especially TMG users who often want features that are not part of the GEDCOM standard.

 

The choice between dynamic or static site should not have anything to do with TMG features, but for other features like ease of use or resources available... I started this thread becasue I am looking for a dynamic site tool which honors TMG's features. None of the tools mentioned here does.

 

I am thrilled to hear that you are planning such a thing. Will it be for 2006, 2007 or later? :-)

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[snip]

Or in the "dynamic" scenario, I upload the new data directly, using my browser, into a database already in place on the Web server, and when the user requests information, the new data is automatically included in the page the user sees, because the page is created when the user requests it. The advantages are pretty clear- I have fewer steps to go through, and I don't have to track which pages need to be updated or uploaded. With a large site that can be quite onerous. And although I don't use this functionality for genealogy data, just for exhibits and links, it also means database development can be collaborative and on-line.

[snip]

Martin

 

In the past I have run across another type of "dynamism." This is the case where the GEDCOM is loaded on the server, the user downloads just it, and the program converts it to some unique files (I guess like a TMG data base!). Then these files are manipulated by a java script in the user's machine. For an example, see http://dftcom2.co.uk/. I guess it corresponds to a mini report section of TMG!

 

This is likely to be of little application, as people browsing for a site (surname-wise, perhaps) are not likely to see a surname in any useful context until the program is obtained and installed.

 

Dick

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