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Descendant indented chart problem

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#1 kaye

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 05:59 PM

Hi

I have hundreds of these relationships but descendants charts are clear. Not this one.

I linked a child to an unmarried mother, originally using her surname.

The mother then entered into a defacto relationship and had two more children to her partner 

 

The screen shows this child is the first child and nothing wrong. Yet when I print descendant indented chart she is the last child and there is a small gap in the vertical line. You can hardly see it and now she is showing as the last child. I went through options many times and cant see what I may have  accidently changed. I had taken out "unknown spouse".

 

I have been trying to recall another incident where I do not have the father (unknowns spouse is not enabled) to replicate this chart but cant think of one. The ones I remember had  fathers and the one I remember only had the one child.

 

The family now want her to have the same name as the other children but of course this doesn't make any difference unless I relink her - but there should be no need to. I had also sent a descendant narrative where I had not taken out "unknown spouse" so this triggered the request.

 

I can probably fix this problem by relinking but there is obviously a problem in my options so it may resolve one family but not others.

 

It must be something very simple as I have over 70,000 family members and I have never come across this before.

 

Many thanks in anticipation.



#2 Terry Reigel

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Posted 03 July 2015 - 04:48 AM

Kay,

 

I suspect, though I'm not sure, that the "families" are sorted by the sort date of the marriage group tag for the parents. With no marriage tag this one gets sorted last. So changing the linkage of the child to mother won't help.

 

I think the easy solution is to send the chart to Word, and edit it manually.


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The Second Edition of my book, A Primer for The Master Genealogist, is still available
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#3 kaye

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Posted 03 July 2015 - 04:52 PM

Hi Terry

 

Yes Dah!I woke up that they are connected by partner tag and he was not listed in descendant chart at all! .Sorry didn't tell you this. I have changed this to de facto and still not coming out as the father of his 2 children. In the general tab it shows up as de facto and abbreviation as de. and  the tag type is "custom". However it seems that the "filter" had been marriage but it was greyed out,  Is this the reminder? I get this message that there is no reminder tag when I click on de facto icon  in the "tag entry" screen.

 

Terry I have to get this correct because I cannot just change one when I eventually print out my descendants chart at the end of each family. I should be able to edit this rather than disconnect and put back in again shouldn't I? . But if I have to I will. The descendancy narrative does not mention the partner either. I  used both parents to create the reports. His did not show the partner either.

 

 So as you say he is not linked. So is all about tag types. I always use partner and it has never been a problem.  I just want to add that I don't use the sentence feature. I do this manually when I write my story.

I have been experimenting but still cannot match them as parents of the two children they have together .This is very strange.



#4 Terry Reigel

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 04:20 AM

Kaye,

 

The father should appear as parent of the children in the chart if there is a parent/child relationship, and it is made Primary in the child's view. Have you verified that this tag exists for each child?

 

As far as the order of the "families" - the "marriage" tag has to 1) be in the Marriage Group, and 2) have a sort date. Are your Partner and De Facto tags in the Marriage group or the Other Events group? But the father won't appear in the chart at all if he has no children attached - the chart is about descendants, not spouses. So "spouses" only appear when required to display descendants.

 

Terry


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#5 kaye

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 07:05 PM

Hi Terry

I have been through it again. I has already summed up what I have done but I  did more trouble shooting and towards the end of this email I came up with what may be a software problem.

 

Yes the father is attached to each of his children as bio-dtr and bio- son and the family view is as it should be..  

In the family group they show as mother and father correctly for two of the children and mother has three children. . I also did a descendant chart in the father as  and it shows only the father and his children two children, No mother. I then did a chart with mother as focus person and she is only linked to her three children. So it is the marriage tag that seems to be the problem.

 

Yes the defacto tag group shows is in the marriage group.

In the general tab it is also in the marriage group. 

Looking in the tag type list  the marriage filter is greyed out.  The type is custom and tag group is marriage.

 

 

So I looked at altering this to marriage via tags and the only marriage tag  is M (<M)  This should be an upside down symbol I cannot create.  Normally there  are two marriage tags I think.

 

So I went back to the main screen and used the marriage tag (+ marriage tag) and made it principal in both husband and wife view. I checked the tag entry and there are linked. as  married.. I deleted defacto and it is still the same. If I do a descendant chart with the husband or the mother only one parent shows up.

 

So I tested the descendant chart for her parents and only one parent shows up.  I then tested my own family and several others and only on marriage partner shows up.

 

So maybe software. I went into out put files and the charts  I did late June are all ok.  My computer went  in to get a new hard drive  a week ago. It was ok bit it was on its way out. . I took it in early so a full image of my computer could be put on an external hard drive. My computer tech also did some trouble shooting but I didn't want to be caught with a hard drive crash. In my last clean and maintenance my tech said I may need a new hard drive and he did an image of my computer then.

 

Yesterday I went into to a view I had never down before and I couldn't close it. I ended up with lots of messages and still couldn't close it. I tried to use task manager but there  were so many files there that I had never heard of. I closed the computer down.

 

I went into repair in master Genealogist and it wouldn't repair because the source is not available. I then went

into another project and it is the same.  I guess I will I have to reinstall my programmes?. Will the back ups also contain the problem? The second project will be ok as I haven't used it for a long time.

 

Terry I just tried sample family and the same problem.

Kindest regards


Edited by kaye, 04 July 2015 - 09:34 PM.


#6 kaye

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 08:30 PM

Hi Terry

 

I have decided I must reinstall my programme. I have Jim Bryant's answer to this task.. I will just wait to see if you confirm that this is what I should do. I have it already in my downloads and have serial number and  unlock code it I need it. I have moved my latest back ups to another usb drive.

 

Regards

Kaye



#7 Terry Reigel

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 05:03 AM

Kaye,

 

I don't think the issue is in the Project files, especially since you say you see it in the Sample Project, but I don't know where it really is. I was hoping that Jim would jump in with an idea but he hasn't yet. 

 

Before you re-install I'd suggest you initialize the Report Definition for this report. Do that by opening the Report definition and clicking the Reset Defaults button at the top left.

 

If that doesn't work you can try re-installing, which should be OK but I don't have high confidence will be the solution.


Terry

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The Second Edition of my book, A Primer for The Master Genealogist, is still available
. For more information see my website.

#8 kaye

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 05:57 AM

Hi Terry

 

You are a legend.  I set it to default and all is well. However I got the "unknown spouse" but unticked it in options and I am back to the original problem.  The  illegitimate first child is still last and has a gap in the vertical descendant line. (where "unknown spouse" would have been) It is not clear who she belongs to.  If I leave in "unknown spouse" you can see she is an illegitimate child of the mother. I have never had this problem before, Normally she would be linked to the mother and be a first child even without a father then the defacto and two other children linked to both of them. You said above that unknown spouse is about descendants but I use these as my main charts and have never seen this before. Even by leaving in unknown spouse she is still shown as the last child despite being born before the others.

 

The mother now wants to change the illegitimate child's name to the defacto's name.  Currently she is the biological child of the mother. I would have to link her as what? adoption? and add the defacto as the principal?

 

I don't like this idea as it is not correct. If I change her name I would usually put  Brown (mothers name and then defacto ie Merriman.  Brown/Merriman

 

I just hope it doesn't happen to any of the others and at this stage there are so many like this that I wouldn't recognise them.

 

Sorry

Cheers

Kaye



#9 kaye

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 04:16 PM

Hi Terry or anyone

 

 

 I recreated a small family as an example of what the desc indented chart looks like with an illegitimate child so you can see that it is not clear. I want  to paste it but cant do it. I used "paste to word".The window open and I pasted but it is not  showing.

Please advise if this is correct and why it is not working please?.

kaye



#10 Michael Hannah

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 09:03 AM

Hi Kaye,

 

I can easily replicate what you see in a small test family.

 

I believe there is nothing really wrong here.  The program is simply doing the best it can with the options and data (or lack of data) you have provided.

 

First, my testing shows the order of the "families" listed on this report is based only on the Marriage group tags marked Primary for this parent with their various spouses.  Doing a set of tests on the various possibilities of data associated with marriage group tags I observe the following.

  • If there is a marriage group tag for the parents, those families are listed in those tags' (sort) date order
  • If there is a marriage group tag, but it has no (sort) date, those families are listed first.
  • If there is no marriage group tag (as would be the case for any "unknown spouse"), those families are listed last.  Families with no marriage group tag are last whether an other parent is linked to the child or the other parent is unknown.

Next there is the "Unknown spouses" option.  As you know that is controlled by the report option on the Miscellaneous tab.  When you "unselect" that option the report eliminates the entire line.  That line would have the leading '+' sign as well as the text "unknown spouse".  As you have noted, when that line is not present it is difficult to recognize that the child is not also a child of the immediately previous spouse, as there is simply a small gap where the line of text identifying the spouse would have been.  Unfortunately I think that is the consequence of eliminating the "unknown spouse" line of text.

 

While this may not be what you prefer, I think that is the best TMG can do.  If TMG were still being developed we could make a "wish" for more/better indication of the missing "unknown spouse" line.  But unfortunately we now must learn how to cope with the way the final version of the program works.

 

The simplest "workaround" that comes to my mind to help you in this situation is to produce the report with a report destination to Word and post process the chart in Word.  I would leave the "Unknown spouses" option selected.  Then I would search and either delete or replace the text of "unknown spouse" with something more meaningful.  If you also wished to change the order of those "unknown" families, you could then Cut/Paste into a different order at that time.

 

Sorry I cannot give you a better way to deal with this.  Hopefully at least you will now understand what is going on.


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#11 kaye

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 06:27 PM

Hello Michael

 

Thank you for going to so much trouble to recreate. Yes this is what is happening.

I hear what you are saying and even if I didn't have a marriage date for those that were married several times  they would appear as husband 1 and child number 1 in a desc chart instead of last. I understand that.

I have been looking through my current out put file trying to find someone with the same criteria. I could only find an illegitimate child but my research stops there and I don't know if the mother remarried so I cannot duplicate. 

 

I did find one example in my own family line whereby the chart came out correct. (this line was first done in version 4) But there was no children to a subsequent marriage so  I added a child. and it is as it should be. The only difference is that the illegitimate child had married and had a family. Since I cannot cut and paste it here and it is a real family I will email have both charts to Terry as he suggested. Well he suggested one. So I am wondering why the same rules to this new chart are different. The illegitimate child is attached to the mother and the new husband and child are last in the descendancy  line as they should be.

 

I have lots of old charts I have printed  but I really cannot go through them all to look for one.

 

I tried to recreate in version 7 but I couldn't get a report because I  have a 64 bit system.

 

I appreciate the workaround but it is a real nightmare and the families wont like it that is why I am so sure that this hasn't happened before because I send people their charts to check and I have sent out hundreds..

Is it possible that TMGW 8 no longer works with new support software?

I will ask Terry to send the "real
" family privately to you. He will post the one I recreated but it is the same as you described with yours.

Thank you very much

 

Regards

Kay

.



#12 kaye

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 07:13 PM

MISSING DATA??

I also found I couldn't get a pdf file because it was missing from TMGW  ( I received a message to download it). . I still have a feeling some files have been lost in my programme. I just tried again and TMGW has stopped responding.

Cheers



#13 kaye

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 06:02 PM

Hi Michael

 

Just lost my post.

 

I just wanted to say that I couldn't post the chart I made up as I couldn't use the cut and paste function and Terry asked me to send it to him. It is the same as the one you replicated.  But I did  find a old chart and you can clearly see it handles illegitimate children in the dame way as other people but without a husband attached.  He cannot post it because it is a genuine family and I haven't heard from him.  I can distinctly recall saying to people that the only way you can see that the mother is not married is by noticing there is no husband.

 

So yes the chart you created is the way the programme is handling illegitimate children now, but it wasn't always the case. I am wondering if support programmes are no longer working such as java. I have had to download several new scripts in recent moths because they keep updating.

 

So I was wondering if changing to V9 is possible. Will it solve the problem and can I actually purchase it.

 

Just to be clear I had only just added this new family that started this question. I just do updates and corrections these days.So it is only new families that this is happening to I THINK. But no proof except the one chart I sent where I added a child to a marriage that occurred late to the mother who had the illegitimate child. This child now has a family of his own so he is sitting under the mother as it always was the case.

 

 

kind regards

kaye



#14 Terry Reigel

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 07:24 PM

Kaye,

 

First, if the old chart was done with a TMG version before 8, it has no bearing on the current situation. The report writer was totally re-written for TMG 8.

 

What you sent me was not an actual chart but a paste into an email message, and you asked be not to post it. I don't know what more we can do. Michael has said he can replicate the issue with the current report writer, so I seen no solution other than those he suggested.

 

Terry


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#15 kaye

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 08:23 PM

Hi Terry

 

 

Yes I can could have sent you an  attachment but didn't know whether you could open it. However you can see it is not producing a chart like the one I had an issue with. I really do not understand. Something must be wrong.

 

So what are you saying, All information entered  from version 3, 4 and then 7 will give a different result than info entered into V8??.

As my last paste to you shows I was getting proper charts but not now.

If I get reports like I am getting now I find it is not acceptable and the workaround is not acceptable  to the family and I will have to use another programme. However I feel sure that there is something in version 8 that changed recently . I feel that something other than the programme is the problem . Why hasn't it happened before?

What about version 9?

I am going to  end the chart to you via a word attachment. Why is it ok and new entries not?

 

Sorry but this is 30 years work and I cannot leave it like this just before I go to print. It is terribly upsetting..

 

regards

Kaye



#16 Terry Reigel

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 05:31 AM

So what are you saying, All information entered  from version 3, 4 and then 7 will give a different result than info entered into V8??.

No, not at all. I'm saying that there is no guarantee that you can get the same exact result when creating a chart from TMG 8 or 9 as you got from an earlier version. It has nothing to do with which version entered the data.
 

As my last paste to you shows I was getting proper charts but not now.

Was when? With which version of TMG?
 

If I get reports like I am getting now I find it is not acceptable and the workaround is not acceptable  to the family and I will have to use another programme. However I feel sure that there is something in version 8 that changed recently . I feel that something other than the programme is the problem . Why hasn't it happened before?


Before when? With TMG 8 or an earlier version?
 

What about version 9?


I expect it's the same as version 8. It's the same report engine, and I think that's what Michael used.
 

I am going to  end the chart to you via a word attachment. Why is it ok and new entries not?


What is the chart you sent me? Is it made with TMG8? How is it different than what you are objecting to?
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#17 Michael Hannah

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:27 AM

Kaye,
 
Sorry you are still upset.  Obviously I still do not completely understand your concern, as I cannot understand what difficulty you are seeing other than what I described earlier.
 
First, the Version of the program and its report generator is not the issue.  I still have several earlier versions (Version 6.12, Version 7.04, and Version 8.08) on my computer for testing and get exactly the same output in all of them as I described earlier for the final Version 9.05.  There is no difference in their behavior for this report.  All base their output on the presence and date of a Primary tag for the parents in the Marriage group, and whether the child has one or both parents linked, as I explained.
 

So yes the chart you created is the way the programme is handling illegitimate children now, but it wasn't always the case.

As best I can tell this has always been the case.  I believe there must be something different in your data to cause whatever different output you are seeing.
 
Is your main concern that when you de-select the "Unknown spouses" option on this report you get no indication other than the small gap that the children are another family?  I believe that this "gap" output when there truly is an "unknown spouse" has always been this way for this report ever since that option was introduced.
 
Perhaps it would help to more completely explain what an "unknown spouse" means in the program.  First, in TMG to be a "spouse" does not require a marriage.  Two people begetting a child together is sufficient to define the other parent as a "spouse".  Second, a child simply being born when the parents are not married (being illegitimate) does not cause the other parent/spouse to be unknown.
 
If both biological parents are linked as parents with Primary relationship tags to the child, then that other parent/spouse will be "known" whether or not they were married at the time.  The other linked parent will be listed as the "spouse" whether or not these parents are linked together with a tag in the marriage group.  The absence of a tag in the marriage group (which is likely if the child is illegitimate) will only affect the sort order of this family in the report as I described earlier.

 

The only way to get an "unknown spouse" is when the child has only one parent linked with a Primary relationship tag to it.  Only those "one-parent" children will be listed in that one parent's chart as being from an "unknown spouse" and will have this "gap" issue if the option is unselected.
 
I am convinced that any differences you are seeing are due to what tag type, if any, you have used to connect the parents; whether that tag is Primary; whether that tag type is in the Marriage group; and whether one or two parents are linked with Primary relationship tags to the child.
 

I am going to send the chart to you via a word attachment. Why is it ok and new entries not?...
So it is only new families that this is happening to I THINK...
If I get reports like I am getting now I find it is not acceptable...

Again, I am convinced that something is different in your data about either the tag types or the way you are entering these new families and children versus the other families.  And I am still unsure what you find "not acceptable".
 
As best I can tell the program is consistent in how it produces the output for this chart based on the data provided, and its behavior has been unchanged at least since Version 6.
 

So I was wondering if changing to V9 is possible. Will it solve the problem and can I actually purchase it.

It is my understanding that there is no longer anyone selling licenses to V9, so that is not an option.
 
I will send you a personal message here on this forum with my e-mail address.  If these comments have not helped and you wish, you can send me something directly which may help me better understand your concerns.


Michael
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#18 kaye

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 05:43 PM

 

So what are you saying, All information entered  from version 3, 4 and then 7 will give a different result than info entered into V8??.

No, not at all. I'm saying that there is no guarantee that you can get the same exact result when creating a chart from TMG 8 or 9 as you got from an earlier version. It has nothing to do with which version entered the data.
 

As my last paste to you shows I was getting proper charts but not now.

Was when? With which version of TMG?
 

If I get reports like I am getting now I find it is not acceptable and the workaround is not acceptable  to the family and I will have to use another programme. However I feel sure that there is something in version 8 that changed recently . I feel that something other than the programme is the problem . Why hasn't it happened before?


Before when? With TMG 8 or an earlier version?
 

What about version 9?


I expect it's the same as version 8. It's the same report engine, and I think that's what Michael used.
 

I am going to  end the chart to you via a word attachment. Why is it ok and new entries not?


What is the chart you sent me? Is it made with TMG8? How is it different than what you are objecting to?

 

 



#19 kaye

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:08 PM

Hello Terry

I cant replicate specific quotes and I cannot cut and paste.

Point 2. The  family I sent you which I resent as an attachment was done in version 8.It was compiled in version 4.

Point 3. With all other versions and I am sure version 8. This is the first time I have seen this problem

Point 3  Something is happening in version 8. Since I don't use it much these days I cannot say when thing have changed. Probably I have not had to put in an illegitimate child recently. But this is the first time I have seen this problem. I  send out charts to check though and once again this is the first time I have seen this problem. The charts I sent out could have been done an altered with another version. I do not know.

 

Lastly the report is different as the illegitimate child's details come before the child who was born  after  the mother married. As  Michael said in the" new" charts an illegitimate child shows up at the end of the list of children with a gap where unknown spouse would be if I have greyed it out. It doesn't seem It is difficult to see where the child fits in.  To be consistent with the current linking Michael replicated is the illegitimate child in this example would appear  in the same way and it doesn't.  This is the type of chart I have always seen. Providing you have the birth dates the first child is linked only to the mother but is still the first child. If the mother married her children are linked to the husband but the illegitimate child is still the first child.  This is not happening now. (sending you this chart Michael)

 

The chart I sent you was in version 8. This is the only programme I am using.

I hope I have made this problem clear.

 

Many thanks

Kaye



#20 kaye

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 06:43 PM

Thank you Michael.

 

Terry asked some questions and my answer may make it clearer.

 

Firstly you recreated a report that I am also seeing, so we are on the same page here. I understand all your other comments.

I linked the children as you described. I rechecked several times but I will recheck it all again. So yes my main concern is this gap. Yes I understand spouse. I know  when you link an illegitmate child it is a mother /child relationship so unknown spouse will show. Or if it is not ticked you get this gap.  So what you are saying is that this is the chart you get when you have an unknown spouse and the mother marries. This is the chart I also got and you have never seen it printed any other way. Incidently sometimes the father will put in an ill. child but doesn't give the mothers name.

 

What I am saying is that in 170,000 entries I have never seen this before.. However, so far I have just found children who are illegitimate but none where the mother married or entered into a relationship and had more children. Which is what we have been discussing.  I just printed out a large family with  unknown spouse entered and one with it greyed out. There seems to be a lot of them.

I hope I can find another example in my reports. This will take time but it is important. It would be very unusual not to find an illegitimate child where the mother married later and this type of report shows.

 

I am privately sending you a chart that I just found.The mother had an illegitimate child. He in turn married and he links to the mother as first child. She subsequently married and there were no children. For the purpose of the exercise I added a child and this child appears at the bottom of the chart with the marriage. This is how it has always been. So it looks like any other chart. Can the fact that the illegitimate child married may make the difference?

 

Thank you for your time trying to solve the issue. you understand my problem perfectly. The chart I am sending you privately will make it clear. I will also change the names on this chart so it can be put on the forum for future reference.

kind regards

kaye






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