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Still Waiting For Version 8

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I was encouraged when I read that TMG - 8 was being previewed at a northern Virginia genealogy society meeting last mid- December and have been eagarly waiting for the announcement of its formal release in every TMG newsletter since then. I have been planning on preparing new editions of both my family history books for some time and had decided to go with the new features of the version 8 report writer. The content of the books depend on word-processor output that I can modify with the use of macros. In addition, in the meanwhile I have purchased a new Windows 7 64-bit machine - which implies that I can't even fall back to version 7 in the production of these books.

 

I can symphthize with Wholly Genes Software's desire not to make release commitments well in advance. But I would hope that they could better balance that defensive inclination against the needs of their community of users to have some indication of at least roughly when to expect the new release. I note that Wholly Genes Software reticence about new release information does not inhibit it from wheting their users' appetites by publicizing all the new features of that future product.

 

I do not believe that TMG's user base would be unduely critical of any failure on the part of Wholly Genes Software to meet a good faith estimate of a future release date for Verion 8. How about it?

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You're asking for the impossible. There is no way to predict when v8 will be ready for release at this point in time. The cake will come out of the oven when it's baked... the sooner the better.

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I do not believe that TMG's user base would be unduely critical of any failure on the part of Wholly Genes Software to meet a good faith estimate of a future release date for Verion 8. How about it?

 

Then you weren't around for the last time such information was given out- yes, it was done once before and the TMG user got on TMG's case in a *very* big way. After that, I'm surprised they even mention working on a new release until it is actually ready for release.

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As such, I am not sure it is worth it to wait for TMG 8. I have a 64 bit machine and have no desire to go backwards. I was with the product back when it was going from DOS to Windows. I remember the problems then.

 

I'm sure you're trying to avoid the problems that ensued then, but the product is needed now. I'm trying to consider all options. I've loved your product for years, but waiting is one of my traits.

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As such, I am not sure it is worth it to wait for TMG 8. I have a 64 bit machine and have no desire to go backwards. I was with the product back when it was going from DOS to Windows. I remember the problems then.

 

I'm sure you're trying to avoid the problems that ensued then, but the product is needed now. I'm trying to consider all options. I've loved your product for years, but waiting is one of my traits.

I really don't understand TMG's problems with its version 8 release.

 

I have had lots of experience developing systems of far greater complexity than TMG that have required the application of extensive project management techniques and rigorous quality control measures during version upgrades. Also, I have personally continued developing less demanding applications that run under various Windows OS's. While I do not have any visibility into TMG's closely guarded development procedures, I think that some general observations are valid:

 

* Wholly Genes has been actively working on the design and implementation of TMG 8 for at least over a year now. This is based on the fact that the earliest mentions of the upgrade can be dated to June 2009 or before in their Forum messages.

* Wholly Genes appeared to be on the verge of releasing version 8 back in December 2009 when it announced in its November newsletter:

Bob Velke will be the featured speaker at the Dec 12th meeting of the Roots Users Group of Arlington, Virginia (Arlington RUG). If you're in the area, you'll want to attend because Bob will use that occasion to make the first public demonstration of The Master Genealogist v8! This upcoming new release includes a new report writer engine (including support for 64-bit operating systems) and many other exciting new features. Following the meeting, a feature list and screen shots will be made available through the company's web site

* Since a change from FoxPro as the underlying data base has been ruled out, the remaining projected changes do not appear to offer any general major structural challenges.

* The changes to support native 64 bit report writing capabilities would appear to be not very formidable, given the overall similarities with its 32 bit counterpart. This is especially troubling, however, and suggests that I may be missing something here - since it has never been clear exactly in what way the TMG report writing capabilities weren't compatible with a 64 bit OS, whereas the rest of the capabilities were.

* Although I certainly recognize that release dates can't be precisely estimated and that one should avoid over-promising, Wholly Genes' policy of "you'll learn about its release only after it's been released" seems contemptuous of its target clientele of sophisticated users and intended only to protect its developers from potential criticism.

 

Tom Giammo

Edited by TPG

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* Wholly Genes appeared to be on the verge of releasing version 8 back in December 2009 when it announced in its November newsletter...

I thought then and still think that announcement was a very big mistake for the reason that users would think that the v8 release was imminent.

 

v8 hasn't been released for the simple reason that some parts haven't been completed. And there is no way to make any sort of estimate when the work will be done.

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... I really don't understand TMG's problems with its version 8 release...

* The changes to support native 64 bit report writing capabilities would appear to be not very formidable, given the overall similarities with its 32 bit counterpart...

Hi Tom,

 

Based on past experience I feel sure that Wholly Genes is eager to get Version 8 "out the door" and is probably even more frustrated than you are that it has taken this long.

 

I am just a user like yourself, and have no inside information about TMG, but am also a career computer guy like yourself. As I understand from previous postings, the report writer is a separate module built on obsolete 16-bit libraries (yes, 16-bit, not 32-bit), and must be completely rewritten. I suspect it will also involve a completely new structure and hopefully some new features. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding. That alone does sound like a formidable project, especially for a small company like Wholly Genes who does not have teams of programmers like some giant software company. And that does not count the many new features to the overall program that have been suggested might be added which are being written and made to work.

 

* ... Wholly Genes' policy of "you'll learn about its release only after it's been released" seems contemptuous of its target clientele of sophisticated users and intended only to protect its developers from potential criticism.
I believe that the continued history of how strongly Wholly Genes has listened to its customers and tried to provide what they want has shown to me that they are one of the least contemptuous software companies I know of. I appreciate it that WhollyGenes has always taken the time to be as sure as they can that any new version works correctly before releasing it. In my opinion, companies that announce and release new software at an advertised time, but where that software does not work, is not backward compatible, and forces the user to adapt to a completely new system are considerably more contemptuous. Unfortunately, in my observation that is a more common business practice. But that is just my opinion.

 

Note that everything about TMG Version 7 except some output from this report writer works just fine on 64-bit operating systems. And there are (what I consider) reasonable work-arounds that will continue to let you generate reports on 32-bit systems. I share your frustration and eagerness for a 64-bit report writer, but I would rather wait and be sure it works than have it be released early and have lots of serious bugs. We would be no better off.

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My son gave me money for christmas so that I could upgrade to v8 when it came out. I have since spent it on something else.

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When this was posted in the Oct 2008 newsletter,

 

"For a limited time, registered users of TMG Gold v6.09 or later can now purchase additional copies of the program for friends and family for HALF OFF the regular retail price! At just $39.97, the price of TMG Gold Edition on CD-ROM has never been lower. Copies of the program that are purchased now will also get a FREE upgrade to TMG v8 when it is released."

 

I thought the version 8 release was just around the corner, possibly even by Christmas. Normally, a company won't offer a free upgrade too far in advance of the release date.

 

I'm on a Windows 7 - 64 bit machine, but fortunately, I use Second Site for most of my output so the limitations haven't affected me much.

 

It does seem we have been waiting for version 8 for a very long time. I'd rather wait, though, and have it work properly than end up with my data corrupted. Maybe it will be ready by this Christmas (sigh)

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Not to belabor the points I made in a previous post, some of the remarks made in reply deserve a comment:

there is no way to make any sort of estimate when the work will be completed.

This is just plain silly. Anone who has experience in the field knows that it may be difficult to make such estimates with any sharp precision, but to say that they cannot be made at all presumes that all software maintenance is a completely random process.

I believe that the continued history of how strongly Wholly Genes has listened to its customers and tried to provide what they want has shown to me that they are one of the least contemptuous software companies I know of.

I distinguish being being "solictitous", in a self-serving paternalistic sense, from being "contemptuous" - the point being that these two attitudes often can go together. Wholly Genes professes to target a sophisticated community of reasonably computer-savvy genealogists, yet they seem to fear some sort of irrational reaction to news about the progress of their update efforts from that same community. I would suggest that a policy of withholding information on the progress of the update is as much "self-interest" as it is "solicitous". I would hope that Wholly Genes would attach some weight to the real problems that some users are experiencing from as yet uncorrected incompatibilities with newer operating systems and the effect it might have on their ability to plan future activities - before persisting in a decision to withhold all such information.

 

I'm not suggesting that Wholly Genes should release Version 8 before it is ready, but I would appreciate some way of judging (even if imprecisely) when it will be ready.

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I cannot but agree with most of what TPG is saying. As decrepitude comes closer and closer planning for my writing and publication becomes more pressing. The two great deficiencies of TMG7 (unicode and the 64-bit word-processing issue) are serious problems for me.

 

This is particularly galling as TMG7 was advertised to be “Vista-compatible.” Well, it isn’t “Vista compatible.” It’s Vista-32 and Win7-32 compatible. Well, lots of software presented the same deceptive front – Photoshop, Premiere Elements and others. That the misstatements were inadvertent rather than fraudulent didn’t reduce the frustration and anger they caused. (Adobe was particularly arrogant and unhelpful.)

 

Like TPG, I don’t want to buy buggy software. But I do think that Wholly Genes needs to be a little more forthcoming about the TMG8 release date. I understand that if July 20 (hope, hope) is announced and the date isn’t met that there will be those who will complain that they’ve been betrayed and deceived. But surely it’s possible to give some kind of rough estimate which will enable one to plan and which contains some kind of disclaimer to minimize griping. “We make no promises, but we believe that TMG8 will be ready by ______.”

 

TMG is a wonderful product. Because it’s more able and complex than most of the competing genealogical programs it has fostered the development of excellent spin-off programs and an enthusiastic community of serious and accomplished users who are technically able. That group must be a huge business asset for what is, after all, probably a niche program. Like the management, they have a stake in the continued viability and success of TMG. I think they deserve a little more information.

 

Good wishes to all.

 

 

Robert Jacobs

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Microsoft just provided some data about current Win7 installations. 46% are running x64.

 

I suspect that a huge fraction of the 32-bit installations are in business/corporate environments where hundreds or thousands of machines exist that don't have the resources to run x64. And I suspect that if you eliminate those machines from the mix, the consumer x64 penetration is well above 50%.

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Not to belabor the points I made in a previous post, some of the remarks made in reply deserve a comment:

there is no way to make any sort of estimate when the work will be completed.

This is just plain silly. Anone who has experience in the field knows that it may be difficult to make such estimates with any sharp precision, but to say that they cannot be made at all presumes that all software maintenance is a completely random process.

I believe that the continued history of how strongly Wholly Genes has listened to its customers and tried to provide what they want has shown to me that they are one of the least contemptuous software companies I know of.

I distinguish being being "solictitous", in a self-serving paternalistic sense, from being "contemptuous" - the point being that these two attitudes often can go together. Wholly Genes professes to target a sophisticated community of reasonably computer-savvy genealogists, yet they seem to fear some sort of irrational reaction to news about the progress of their update efforts from that same community. I would suggest that a policy of withholding information on the progress of the update is as much "self-interest" as it is "solicitous". I would hope that Wholly Genes would attach some weight to the real problems that some users are experiencing from as yet uncorrected incompatibilities with newer operating systems and the effect it might have on their ability to plan future activities - before persisting in a decision to withhold all such information.

 

I'm not suggesting that Wholly Genes should release Version 8 before it is ready, but I would appreciate some way of judging (even if imprecisely) when it will be ready.

 

 

I'm curious as to what real difference it makes? If you want it held until it is ready why should you even be worried about how long that will take?

 

Bob and company could simply announce "Version 8 will ship no later than Dec 2011 if all thing go as planned".

That, at least, would tend to shut people up about all this "when, when, when" business.

 

Or they could announce that 1 month will be added to whatever projected release date they may presently have every time someone asks the "When" question!

;)

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* Since a change from FoxPro as the underlying data base has been ruled out, the remaining projected changes do not appear to offer any general major structural challenges.

 

For what it's worth (probably not too much), I will not upgrade to another version of TMG that uses FoxPro.

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MSFT released Vista 64 bit back in Sept 2006. I'll presume that Wholly Genes knew that 64 bit architectures were coming before that.

 

4 years and the best TMG users can get is: "The cake will come out of the oven when it's baked." Another 4 years maybe? How about 10 years? Will it be ready before the next Windows OS comes out?

 

Not being able to generate reports is a BIG DEAL. I installed TMG and a number of other genealogy programs at a FHC where I volunteer to give patrons a chance to look over various programs. I've uninstalled TMG. In all good conscious I can't imply that TMG 7.0 is an acceptable genealogy program when you can't generate reports on a Win 7/64 bit architecture.

 

I've followed the steps for installing the PDF printer on 64 bit systems three times and it still doesn't work. [i have win 7 - 64 bit ultimate].

 

How about genealogy program reviews? You think there's any chance in the world they would recommend TMG v. 7?

 

I've overlooked the warts too long expecting they would get fixed. I have to look seriously for other software.

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Bob and company could simply announce "Version 8 will ship no later than Dec 2011 if all thing go as planned".

That, at least, would tend to shut people up about all this "when, when, when" business.

 

Or they could announce that 1 month will be added to whatever projected release date they may presently have every time someone asks the "When" question!

I don't know how to take your remarks - whether they should be considered as serious "put-downs" or as attempts at sardonic humor. I am sure that Velke et al. take the situation seriously and that the failure to correct the problems holding up the release of version 8 are a matter of increasing concern.

 

In a web-page up at "TMG V8 Preview", still up at 'http://www.whollygenes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=WG&Screen=TMG8PREVIEW' and carrying a 2008 copyright date, Wholly Genes claimed that version 8 is already in beta test.

 

If this beta test claim were true, the use of that standard beta terminology implies to me that V8 had already been tested extensively internally - and that any deficiencies identified 1) were not considered to be "show-stoppers" and 2) fixes had already been figured out which corrected them. All that remained was to subject the release to unanticipated circumstances that might arise in real-world use by external users to identify bugs and design defects that had not been exposed by internal testing. Since a major goal of the changes in V8 was to modify the report generators to accomodate the 64 bit OS's, one would have to assume that this capability had already passed Wholly Genes' internal testing before being put into beta testing. This implies that whatever obstacles presented the conversion from 16-bit dlls for these modules had already been largely addressed.

 

So, what could have happened during beta testing to so delay the anticipated release still baffles me.

 

By the way, you questioned why I should be concerned about release dates when I professed to be willing to wait for Version 8 "to be ready". I think that you are confusing "ready for release" with being "certified as bug-free". I am not the purist you seem to want to paint me as being. If you haven't noticed, Version 7 itself is far from being bug-free - as is recognized in the admission on the Wholly Gene's web-page cited above that V8 will correct bugs in V7. I can personally attest to the fact the some of these bugs still exist.

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MSFT released Vista 64 bit back in Sept 2006. I'll presume that Wholly Genes knew that 64 bit architectures were coming before that.

Seems like a reasonable assumption to me.

 

4 years and the best TMG users can get is: "The cake will come out of the oven when it's baked." Another 4 years maybe? How about 10 years? Will it be ready before the next Windows OS comes out?

The quoted statement is from me, not from Wholly Genes.

 

Not being able to generate reports is a BIG DEAL. I installed TMG and a number of other genealogy programs at a FHC where I volunteer to give patrons a chance to look over various programs. I've uninstalled TMG. In all good conscious I can't imply that TMG 7.0 is an acceptable genealogy program when you can't generate reports on a Win 7/64 bit architecture.

Yep.

 

I've followed the steps for installing the PDF printer on 64 bit systems three times and it still doesn't work. [i have win 7 - 64 bit ultimate].

I've gotten the PDF driver working on several Win7 x64 systems as have dozens of other users. I have no idea why you can't.

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If this beta test claim were true, the use of that standard beta terminology implies to me that V8 had already been tested extensively internally - and that any deficiencies identified 1) were not considered to be "show-stoppers" and 2) fixes had already been figured out which corrected them. All that remained was to subject the release to unanticipated circumstances that might arise in real-world use by external users to identify bugs and design defects that had not been exposed by internal testing. Since a major goal of the changes in V8 was to modify the report generators to accomodate the 64 bit OS's, one would have to assume that this capability had already passed Wholly Genes' internal testing before being put into beta testing. This implies that whatever obstacles presented the conversion from 16-bit dlls for these modules had already been largely addressed.

This is a perfect example of ungrounded assumptions being made on the basis of the preview being released. :mellow:

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If this beta test claim were true, the use of that standard beta terminology implies to me that V8 had already been tested extensively internally...

I am just a user like yourself and don't work for WhollyGenes, but my understanding is that this is a small company. In fact, historically I believe much of the code was written just by Bob Velke himself. I do not believe WG has any significant group of internal staff to "test extensively internally". I feel sure that the people who write the changes to TMG do some testing first. But, my understanding is that most of the testing of TMG is done by a set volunteer users who "beta" test new/changed features in order to identify deficiencies and "show stoppers" so that either that feature can be fixed prior to a release or delayed to a later release. I suspect the software is much less complete than you believe when it begins this beta testing.

 

As a retired professional software person, I have been involved in many commercial and government "beta" software tests. All my beta experiences were very different than your assumptions about "standard beta terminology". The software was always much less complete than you suggest. Like Jim said, especially in the case of small software companies like WhollyGenes I suspect your assumptions about the nature of the software prior to "beta" testing are ungrounded.

 

Just my opinion,

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If this beta test claim were true, the use of that standard beta terminology implies to me that V8 had already been tested extensively internally...

I am just a user like yourself and don't work for WhollyGenes, but my understanding is that this is a small company. In fact, historically I believe much of the code was written just by Bob Velke himself. I do not believe WG has any significant group of internal staff to "test extensively internally". I feel sure that the people who write the changes to TMG do some testing first. But, my understanding is that most of the testing of TMG is done by a set volunteer users who "beta" test new/changed features in order to identify deficiencies and "show stoppers" so that either that feature can be fixed prior to a release or delayed to a later release. I suspect the software is much less complete than you believe when it begins this beta testing.

 

As a retired professional software person, I have been involved in many commercial and government "beta" software tests. All my beta experiences were very different than your assumptions about "standard beta terminology". The software was always much less complete than you suggest. Like Jim said, especially in the case of small software companies like WhollyGenes I suspect your assumptions about the nature of the software prior to "beta" testing are ungrounded.

 

Just my opinion,

 

Inadequate testing using a small population is no excuse. It is merely an explanation and Wholly Genes, if it wants to be best of breed, should strive to do better.

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Please don't get off topic.

 

If you want to discuss the wait for v8, that's fine.

 

However, it serves no purpose in getting into the Wholly Genes software development process for the simple reason that's something that you know nothing about. Arguments based on speculation aren't worth much.

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In my earlier post, I carefully prefaced my remarks concerning extensive testing with the condition: "If this beta test claim were true . . .". In spite of the fact that a few organizations purposefully misuse the term "Beta Test", I stand by the definition that is most commonly applied to its use in a professional software development context and which can easily be support via a google search on the term - viz:

In software development, a beta test is the second phase of software testing in which a sampling of the intended audience tries the product out. (Beta is the second letter of the Greek alphabet.) Originally, the term alpha test meant the first phase of testing in a software development process. The first phase includes unit testing, component testing, and system testing. Beta testing can be considered 'pre-release testing.'

The descriptions of the software maintence and upgrade procedures in place at WG that have been offered by others outside the organization may well be true. If so (and I emphasize that I suspect that these accounts may be no more than plausible guesses), then I would conclude that WG was not using "beta-test" in any professional sense. Furthermore, the suspicion arises that the cause of the inordinate delay in the implementation of the V8 release might well be due to these chaotic procedures.

 

As a program ages and accumulates more legacy code that increasing conflicts with changes in the operating environment, it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain any configuration control on changes using informal procedures. For example, if one goes back to the extensive file structure documentation published by WG on TMG V3, you would notice that the emphasis was strongly on the minimization of file size, with many fields artificially compressed to save space. Although this should no longer be a primary goal in the current operating environment, one can still see remnants of that policy in the V7 file structures - with newer capabilities accomodated via a plethora of single-purpose add-on files. While perhaps understandable, all this makes implementation of changes all the more difficult, especially when using a chaotic configuration control and testing processes.

 

I wrote my first computer program just about fifty-two years ago. Although I later evolved into managing large scale computer developement organizations, I continued to actively program on the side as more or less a hobby. Since my retirement, I've gone into shareware/freeware developement using current PC-based technologies You can judge my competence to offer opinions on TMG on that basis (see progenitor.crestline-enterprises.com).

 

I have been a devoted TMG user for about fifteen years. I will be patient while WG works out its problems with Version 8. I would hope, however, that they institute whatever basic changes to their internal development procedures are necessary to insure that needless confusion and delay is not repeated in subsequent releases. Most of all, I would appreciate a bit of openess and honesty in an explanation of the current delays and a best-guess of the availablity of Version 8.

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On a Need To Know basis: We have not heard a word from TMG for quite a while now. As with the current BP situation, no news is NOT good news. Though I hope that there are still plans to bring Version 8 to us as soon as possible, I believe that some sort of announcement from TMG should be forthcoming.... anything, just something to let us know that they are still working on it. I really do not want to have to use another program - though I know that some people are doing just that because they are beginning to feel abandoned.

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I have been following this conversation with much interest, since my husband and I have postponed purchasing new computers 'til TMG 8 was released. We were going to do this at Christmas...and are still on our old computers. We love TMG and the features it offers, and have spent a lot of time learning to use it and make it work. However, the delay in issuing TMG 8 is starting to worry us, since we spend a lot of time working on genealogy (retired). Also, there has been NO newsletter since March, whereas the newsletters appeared frequently. We switched to TMG in 2003 from a program where no updates had been forthcoming for years, and of course it took a long time to make our data read the way we wanted.

So with no news on TMG v. 8, and no newsletters, we wonder if Wholly Genes is running out of steam. We dread making a switch to another program, but don't want to invest in conforming our data to TMG if there are to be no new updates.

Edited by Loni Fuller

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Though I hope that there are still plans to bring Version 8 to us as soon as possible, I believe that some sort of announcement from TMG should be forthcoming.... anything, just something to let us know that they are still working on it.

Having spent more than a couple hundred hours or more (on my own time) working on TMG8, I can assure you that it is being worked on. I spent about 15 hours reviewing the new roles this week and making revisions and am not done.

 

Jim

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